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Hi Mauri,<br>
<br>
As far as I am aware, there is a problem using C4F8O in the LTCC
because the PMTs used are optimized for the light produced in that
gas. The wavelength of the Cerenkov light is different for C4F8O
than C4F10. The PMTs are optimized for the light produced in C4F10.
Stepan reported this result after testing with the C4F8O gas several
years ago.<br>
<br>
F2 Chemicals is the only vendor of this gas that I am aware of.<br>
My contact at F2 Chemicals was Helen McNamee
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Helen.McNamee@f2chemicals.com"><Helen.McNamee@f2chemicals.com></a><br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
George<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/5/2018 2:35 PM, Maurizio Ungaro
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:3E666003-6468-47D4-AA6E-BC5F0BC7E41C@jlab.org">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
Hi George,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks for the detailed email. We still need to see
what is involved to have a designed approved recovery system.
Volker just approved to start involving our designers (and you)
on this.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We also need to consider alternative gas. Would it
be possible to:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">1. Get a new quote on C4F10</div>
<div class="">2. Get a quote on C4F8O </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Mauri</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 5, 2018, at 1:53 PM, Patrizia Rossi
<<a href="mailto:rossi@jlab.org" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rossi@jlab.org</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252" class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Thank
you George. Indeed is not a negligible amount...<br
class="">
<div apple-content-edited="true" class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap:
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break:
after-white-space;" class="">---------------------------------------------------<br
class="">
# Patrizia Rossi<br class="">
# Jefferson Lab <br class="">
# 12000 Jefferson Avenue<br class="">
# Suite 5<br class="">
# Newport News VA 23606 (USA)<br class="">
# e-mail: <a href="mailto:rossi@jlab.org" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rossi@jlab.org</a><br
class="">
# phone: +1 (757) 269 7740<br class="">
# fax: + 1 (757) 269 5800</div>
<div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap:
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break:
after-white-space;" class=""># cell: +1 (757) 528
7606<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 05/apr/2018, at 13:10, George
Jacobs <<a href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""> Hi
Patrizia,<br class="">
<br class="">
I believe the last quote was ~$140 per Kg, so
400 kg would be ~$56,000. This quote is expired.
A new quote would be required.<br class="">
<br class="">
George<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/5/2018 12:19
PM, Patrizia Rossi wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:644AFAC5-A57B-4673-B04C-EC0C4B292182@jlab.org"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
class="">
Dear George,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">thank you very much for your
assessment concerning the C4F10 gas needed
to run 1 or 2 LTCC sectors in the Fall.</div>
<div class="">May you please remind me how
much 400Kg would cost?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">thanks</div>
<div class="">patrizia</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div apple-content-edited="true" class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class="">---------------------------------------------------<br
class="">
# Patrizia Rossi<br class="">
# Jefferson Lab <br class="">
# 12000 Jefferson Avenue<br class="">
# Suite 5<br class="">
# Newport News VA 23606 (USA)<br
class="">
# e-mail: <a
href="mailto:rossi@jlab.org" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rossi@jlab.org</a><br
class="">
# phone: +1 (757) 269 7740<br class="">
# fax: + 1 (757) 269 5800</div>
<div style="letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class=""># cell: +1 (757) 528 7606<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 05/apr/2018, at 12:01,
Amrit Yegneswaran <<a
href="mailto:yeg@jlab.org" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">yeg@jlab.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="font-family: tahoma,new
york,times,serif; font-size: 14pt;
color: #009900" class="">
<div class="">george,<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">good e-mail.<br
data-mce-bogus="1" class="">
</div>
<div class="">question is even if
we start procurement today will
we have the gas in time, or will
we have to say goodbye to the
LTCC, temporarily at least!<br
data-mce-bogus="1" class="">
</div>
<div class="">amrit<br
data-mce-bogus="1" class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<hr id="zwchr"
data-marker="__DIVIDER__"
class="">
<div data-marker="__HEADERS__"
class=""><b class="">From: </b>"George
Jacobs" <<a
href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>><br
class="">
<b class="">To: </b>"Maurizio
Ungaro" <<a
href="mailto:ungaro@jlab.org"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">ungaro@jlab.org</a>>,
"Stepan Stepanyan" <<a
href="mailto:stepanya@jlab.org"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">stepanya@jlab.org</a>><br
class="">
<b class="">Cc: </b>"dsg-ltcc"
<<a
href="mailto:dsg-ltcc@jlab.org"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">dsg-ltcc@jlab.org</a>><br
class="">
<b class="">Sent: </b>Thursday,
April 5, 2018 11:53:58 AM<br
class="">
<b class="">Subject: </b>Re:
[Dsg-ltcc] LTCC S5 test, C4F10
usage update<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div data-marker="__QUOTED_TEXT__"
class="">Hi Mauri,<br class="">
<br class="">
If there are plans to run the
LTCC this Fall using C4F10 gas,
you will need to purchase an
additional supply of this gas.<br
class="">
<br class="">
I estimate that there will be
<30kg of gas remaining in the
supply tank at the end of this
run. This amount of gas may not
be sufficient to refill the S5
LTCC prior to running in the
fall.<br class="">
<br class="">
Assuming an average leak rate of
0.5 kg/day for LTCC S5 and the
75 Kg required to fill the
sector, with a 200 day run time,
an additional 175 Kg of C4F10
gas should be purchased in order
to operate the S5 LTCC. The
start of the procurement process
should not be excessively
delayed due to the potentially
long lead time.<br class="">
<br class="">
If the run plan includes a 2nd
LTCC sector, additional gas will
be required. Using the same
assumptions as for S5, a minimum
of 175kg plus a contingency of
75kg, a total of 225kg should be
purchased for this 2nd sector.
This would bring the total
minimum amount of gas required
to 400 kg, in order to operate 2
LTCC sectors for 100 days with
some small contingency to
account for a small increase in
the detector leak rate.<br
class="">
<br class="">
If a 2nd LTCC sector is in the
run plan, the leakage rate of
this sector should be minimized
prior to filling with C4F10 gas.
Using our S5 experience as a
guide we can assume that the S6
position will fill and operate
the similarly if the box is leak
tight. <br class="">
<br class="">
There is significant additional
complexity for the S2-S3
location. If we take into
account that the "nose" area of
the LTCC box is where the
majority of the leakage is
concentrated, we can assume that
the S2 and S3 position may have
a larger leak rate due to the
increased pressure at the "nose"
due to the S2-S3 orientation. <br
class="">
<br class="">
There is also some uncertainty
as to how efficiently the S2-S3
volume will fill with a shorter
vent line due to the increase in
height location of the S2-S3
volumes. Also, due to the
orientation of the volume and
location of the gas lines, there
will be no direct measure of the
pressure inside the detector
volume or fill level associated
with it as we have for S5 or S6.
Pressure control may not be as
straight forward as it is for
S5.<br class="">
<br class="">
The S2-S3 bubbler will need to
be relocated to the top of the
fwd carriage to become the vent
bubbler. The vent bubbler
location for S2-S3 will require
an elevated shelf to maximize
the separation column height for
the C4F10 gas during filling.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Cheers,<br class="">
George<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On
3/20/2018 1:58 PM, Maurizio
Ungaro wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:D6E38C56-314E-41CB-B66A-7957CD306F92@jlab.org"
class="">Thanks George, these
are all good news.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Indeed we need
to address your questions at
the end.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Mauri</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote class="">
<div class="">On Mar 20,
2018, at 12:56 PM,
George Jacobs <<a
href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org"
class=""
target="_blank"
data-mce-href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>> wrote:</div>
<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">Please
find attache power
point update of the
C4F10 gas usage for
the single sector
test.<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature">--
George Jacobs
Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
STE 12
12000 Jefferson Ave.
Newport News, VA 23606
(office) 757-269-7115
(cell) 757-876-0480
(email) <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" target="_blank" data-mce-href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" moz-do-not-send="true">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>
(website) <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://userweb.jlab.org/%7Ejacobsg" target="_blank" data-mce-href="https://userweb.jlab.org/%7Ejacobsg" moz-do-not-send="true">https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg</a>
</pre>
</div>
<span
id="cid:ACC0A983-C502-4D61-B937-899D22CA2407@jlab.org"
class=""><LTCC
Single Sector Test
Status-20Mar2018.pptx></span>_______________________________________________<br
class="">
Dsg-ltcc mailing list<br
class="">
<a
href="mailto:Dsg-ltcc@jlab.org"
class=""
target="_blank"
data-mce-href="mailto:Dsg-ltcc@jlab.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Dsg-ltcc@jlab.org</a><br class="">
<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://mailman.jlab.org/mailman/listinfo/dsg-ltcc"
target="_blank"
data-mce-href="https://mailman.jlab.org/mailman/listinfo/dsg-ltcc"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://mailman.jlab.org/mailman/listinfo/dsg-ltcc</a><br
class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature">--
George Jacobs
Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
STE 12
12000 Jefferson Ave.
Newport News, VA 23606
(office) 757-269-7115
(cell) 757-876-0480
(email) <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" target="_blank" data-mce-href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" moz-do-not-send="true">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>
(website) <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://userweb.jlab.org/%7Ejacobsg" target="_blank" data-mce-href="https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg" moz-do-not-send="true">https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg</a>
</pre>
<br class="">
_______________________________________________<br class="">
Dsg-ltcc mailing list<br
class="">
<a
href="mailto:Dsg-ltcc@jlab.org"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">Dsg-ltcc@jlab.org</a><br
class="">
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href="https://mailman.jlab.org/mailman/listinfo/dsg-ltcc"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://mailman.jlab.org/mailman/listinfo/dsg-ltcc</a><br
class="">
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</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
George Jacobs
Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
STE 12
12000 Jefferson Ave.
Newport News, VA 23606
(office) 757-269-7115
(cell) 757-876-0480
(email) <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" moz-do-not-send="true">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>
(website) <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://userweb.jlab.org/%7Ejacobsg" moz-do-not-send="true">https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg</a></pre>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
George Jacobs
Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
STE 12
12000 Jefferson Ave.
Newport News, VA 23606
(office) 757-269-7115
(cell) 757-876-0480
(email) <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>
(website) <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg">https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg</a></pre>
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