<html>
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Hi Mauri,<br>
<br>
FYI, some of the LTCC sectors leak very badly. For example, <b>LTCC
S6 currently leaks ~600 liters per day or </b><b>~15 kg per day,</b>
in it's current state. LTCC S3 also leaks significantly more than
0.5 kg/day. So, you cannot use 0.5kg/day leak estimate for each
sector unless they are repaired and leakage is tested. LTCC S2 was
the 2nd best, only leaking ~46 liters per day or 1.2 kg per day, in
it's current state. It looks like S2 and S6 leak rates have
increased over time, S6 significantly so, which is typical since
leak rates only get worse over time, not better. <br>
<br>
How many LTCC sectors are you planning to repair this summer? LTCC
S2 is currently much tighter than S6 or S3. Not sure how well you
can repair these while installed. Perhaps S2 can be improved in
place if S3 is removed for repairs? <br>
<br>
George<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/5/2018 6:01 PM, Maurizio Ungaro
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:A7F9071A-4BAB-4B5A-BC5E-0A96357EC1F4@jlab.org">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
It looks like we can run each sector for 200 days with 175Kg
each.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I would ask a quote for 350, 700 and 1000Kg: 2, 4, 6
sectors (we would operate only 5 but this would give us more in
storage).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">What do you think?</div>
<div class="">Mauri<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 5, 2018, at 5:32 PM, George Jacobs
<<a href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8" class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""> What
amount of C4F8O gas should I get a quote on?<br
class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/5/2018 4:51 PM,
Maurizio Ungaro wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:3C234177-3C2C-413B-9C8C-87067821B2A6@jlab.org"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class="">
Hi George,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">From Stepan’s document, the C4F8O
transparency is comparable to the C4F10’s one.</div>
<div class="">The PMTs have been coated with
p-terphenyl whic increase the response in the
UV. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It is worth investigating its price.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks</div>
<div class="">Mauri</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 5, 2018, at 4:39 PM,
George Jacobs <<a
href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
class=""> That should read; the PMTs are
not optimized for the light produced in
C4F8O gas.<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/5/2018
4:37 PM, George Jacobs wrote:<br
class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:5a624765-d43f-7bb8-050f-bc15c2ef6be3@jlab.org"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
class="">
Hi Mauri,<br class="">
<br class="">
As far as I am aware, there is a
problem using C4F8O in the LTCC
because the PMTs used are optimized
for the light produced in that gas.
The wavelength of the Cerenkov light
is different for C4F8O than C4F10. The
PMTs are optimized for the light
produced in C4F10. Stepan reported
this result after testing with the
C4F8O gas several years ago.<br
class="">
<br class="">
F2 Chemicals is the only vendor of
this gas that I am aware of.<br
class="">
My contact at F2 Chemicals was Helen
McNamee <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:Helen.McNamee@f2chemicals.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><Helen.McNamee@f2chemicals.com></a><br
class="">
<br class="">
Cheers,<br class="">
George<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On
4/5/2018 2:35 PM, Maurizio Ungaro
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:3E666003-6468-47D4-AA6E-BC5F0BC7E41C@jlab.org"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
class="">
Hi George,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks for the
detailed email. We still need to
see what is involved to have a
designed approved recovery system.
Volker just approved to start
involving our designers (and you)
on this.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We also need to
consider alternative gas. Would
it be possible to:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">1. Get a new quote on
C4F10</div>
<div class="">2. Get a quote on
C4F8O </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Mauri</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 5, 2018,
at 1:53 PM, Patrizia Rossi
<<a
href="mailto:rossi@jlab.org"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rossi@jlab.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta
http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html;
charset=utf-8" class="">
<div style="word-wrap:
break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;"
class="">Thank you George.
Indeed is not a negligible
amount...<br class="">
<div
apple-content-edited="true"
class="">
<div
style="letter-spacing:
normal; text-align:
start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform:
none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing:
0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; word-wrap:
break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; line-break:
after-white-space;"
class="">---------------------------------------------------<br
class="">
# Patrizia Rossi<br
class="">
# Jefferson Lab <br
class="">
# 12000 Jefferson
Avenue<br class="">
# Suite 5<br class="">
# Newport News VA
23606 (USA)<br
class="">
# e-mail: <a
href="mailto:rossi@jlab.org"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rossi@jlab.org</a><br
class="">
# phone: +1 (757) 269
7740<br class="">
# fax: + 1 (757) 269
5800</div>
<div
style="letter-spacing:
normal; text-align:
start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform:
none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing:
0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; word-wrap:
break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; line-break:
after-white-space;"
class=""># cell: +1
(757) 528 7606<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite"
class="">
<div class="">On
05/apr/2018, at
13:10, George Jacobs
<<a
href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta
http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class="">
<div text="#000000"
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
class=""> Hi
Patrizia,<br
class="">
<br class="">
I believe the last
quote was ~$140
per Kg, so 400 kg
would be ~$56,000.
This quote is
expired. A new
quote would be
required.<br
class="">
<br class="">
George<br class="">
<br class="">
<div
class="moz-cite-prefix">On
4/5/2018 12:19
PM, Patrizia
Rossi wrote:<br
class="">
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite"
cite="mid:644AFAC5-A57B-4673-B04C-EC0C4B292182@jlab.org"
class="">
<meta
http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class="">
Dear George,
<div class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div class="">thank
you very much
for your
assessment
concerning the
C4F10 gas
needed to run
1 or 2 LTCC
sectors in the
Fall.</div>
<div class="">May
you please
remind me how
much 400Kg
would cost?</div>
<div class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div class="">thanks</div>
<div class="">patrizia</div>
<div class=""><br
class="">
<div
apple-content-edited="true"
class="">
<div
style="letter-spacing:
normal;
orphans: auto;
text-align:
start;
text-indent:
0px;
text-transform:
none;
white-space:
normal;
widows: auto;
word-spacing:
0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;
word-wrap:
break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode:
space;
-webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;" class="">---------------------------------------------------<br
class="">
# Patrizia
Rossi<br
class="">
# Jefferson
Lab <br
class="">
# 12000
Jefferson
Avenue<br
class="">
# Suite 5<br
class="">
# Newport News
VA 23606 (USA)<br
class="">
# e-mail: <a
href="mailto:rossi@jlab.org" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">rossi@jlab.org</a><br
class="">
# phone: +1
(757) 269 7740<br
class="">
# fax: + 1
(757) 269 5800</div>
<div
style="letter-spacing:
normal;
orphans: auto;
text-align:
start;
text-indent:
0px;
text-transform:
none;
white-space:
normal;
widows: auto;
word-spacing:
0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;
word-wrap:
break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode:
space;
-webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;" class=""># cell: +1 (757) 528 7606<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote
type="cite"
class="">
<div class="">On
05/apr/2018,
at 12:01,
Amrit
Yegneswaran
<<a
href="mailto:yeg@jlab.org"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">yeg@jlab.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div
style="font-family:
tahoma,new
york,times,serif;
font-size:
14pt; color:
#009900"
class="">
<div class="">george,<br
class="">
</div>
<div class="">good
e-mail.<br
data-mce-bogus="1"
class="">
</div>
<div class="">question
is even if we
start
procurement
today will we
have the gas
in time, or
will we have
to say goodbye
to the LTCC,
temporarily at
least!<br
data-mce-bogus="1"
class="">
</div>
<div class="">amrit<br
data-mce-bogus="1" class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<hr id="zwchr"
data-marker="__DIVIDER__" class="">
<div
data-marker="__HEADERS__"
class=""><b
class="">From:
</b>"George
Jacobs" <<a
href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>><br
class="">
<b class="">To:
</b>"Maurizio
Ungaro" <<a
href="mailto:ungaro@jlab.org" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">ungaro@jlab.org</a>>,
"Stepan
Stepanyan"
<<a
href="mailto:stepanya@jlab.org"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">stepanya@jlab.org</a>><br
class="">
<b class="">Cc:
</b>"dsg-ltcc"
<<a
href="mailto:dsg-ltcc@jlab.org"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">dsg-ltcc@jlab.org</a>><br
class="">
<b class="">Sent:
</b>Thursday,
April 5, 2018
11:53:58 AM<br
class="">
<b class="">Subject:
</b>Re:
[Dsg-ltcc]
LTCC S5 test,
C4F10 usage
update<br
class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div
data-marker="__QUOTED_TEXT__"
class="">Hi
Mauri,<br
class="">
<br class="">
If there are
plans to run
the LTCC this
Fall using
C4F10 gas, you
will need to
purchase an
additional
supply of this
gas.<br
class="">
<br class="">
I estimate
that there
will be
<30kg of
gas remaining
in the supply
tank at the
end of this
run. This
amount of gas
may not be
sufficient to
refill the S5
LTCC prior to
running in the
fall.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Assuming an
average leak
rate of 0.5
kg/day for
LTCC S5 and
the 75 Kg
required to
fill the
sector, with a
200 day run
time, an
additional 175
Kg of C4F10
gas should be
purchased in
order to
operate the S5
LTCC. The
start of the
procurement
process should
not be
excessively
delayed due to
the
potentially
long lead
time.<br
class="">
<br class="">
If the run
plan includes
a 2nd LTCC
sector,
additional gas
will be
required.
Using the same
assumptions as
for S5, a
minimum of
175kg plus a
contingency of
75kg, a total
of 225kg
should be
purchased for
this 2nd
sector. This
would bring
the total
minimum amount
of gas
required to
400 kg, in
order to
operate 2 LTCC
sectors for
100 days with
some small
contingency to
account for a
small increase
in the
detector leak
rate.<br
class="">
<br class="">
If a 2nd LTCC
sector is in
the run plan,
the leakage
rate of this
sector should
be minimized
prior to
filling with
C4F10 gas.
Using our S5
experience as
a guide we can
assume that
the S6
position will
fill and
operate the
similarly if
the box is
leak tight. <br
class="">
<br class="">
There is
significant
additional
complexity for
the S2-S3
location. If
we take into
account that
the "nose"
area of the
LTCC box is
where the
majority of
the leakage is
concentrated,
we can assume
that the S2
and S3
position may
have a larger
leak rate due
to the
increased
pressure at
the "nose" due
to the S2-S3
orientation. <br
class="">
<br class="">
There is also
some
uncertainty as
to how
efficiently
the S2-S3
volume will
fill with a
shorter vent
line due to
the increase
in height
location of
the S2-S3
volumes. Also,
due to the
orientation of
the volume and
location of
the gas lines,
there will be
no direct
measure of the
pressure
inside the
detector
volume or fill
level
associated
with it as we
have for S5 or
S6. Pressure
control may
not be as
straight
forward as it
is for S5.<br
class="">
<br class="">
The S2-S3
bubbler will
need to be
relocated to
the top of the
fwd carriage
to become the
vent bubbler.
The vent
bubbler
location for
S2-S3 will
require an
elevated shelf
to maximize
the separation
column height
for the C4F10
gas during
filling.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Cheers,<br
class="">
George<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div
class="moz-cite-prefix">On
3/20/2018 1:58
PM, Maurizio
Ungaro wrote:<br
class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:D6E38C56-314E-41CB-B66A-7957CD306F92@jlab.org"
class="">Thanks
George, these
are all good
news.
<div class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div class="">Indeed
we need to
address your
questions at
the end.</div>
<div class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div class="">Mauri</div>
<div class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br
class="">
<blockquote
class="">
<div class="">On
Mar 20, 2018,
at 12:56 PM,
George Jacobs
<<a
href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org"
class=""
target="_blank"
data-mce-href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" moz-do-not-send="true">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">Please
find attache
power point
update of the
C4F10 gas
usage for the
single sector
test.<br
class="">
<pre class="moz-signature">--
George Jacobs
Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
STE 12
12000 Jefferson Ave.
Newport News, VA 23606
(office) 757-269-7115
(cell) 757-876-0480
(email) <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" target="_blank" data-mce-href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" moz-do-not-send="true">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>
(website) <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://userweb.jlab.org/%7Ejacobsg" target="_blank" data-mce-href="https://userweb.jlab.org/%7Ejacobsg" moz-do-not-send="true">https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg</a>
</pre>
</div>
<span
id="cid:ACC0A983-C502-4D61-B937-899D22CA2407@jlab.org"
class=""><LTCC
Single Sector
Test
Status-20Mar2018.pptx></span>_______________________________________________<br
class="">
Dsg-ltcc
mailing list<br
class="">
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href="mailto:Dsg-ltcc@jlab.org"
class=""
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class="">
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class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature">--
George Jacobs
Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
STE 12
12000 Jefferson Ave.
Newport News, VA 23606
(office) 757-269-7115
(cell) 757-876-0480
(email) <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" target="_blank" data-mce-href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" moz-do-not-send="true">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>
(website) <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://userweb.jlab.org/%7Ejacobsg" target="_blank" data-mce-href="https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg" moz-do-not-send="true">https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg</a>
</pre>
<br class="">
_______________________________________________<br class="">
Dsg-ltcc
mailing list<br
class="">
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href="mailto:Dsg-ltcc@jlab.org"
class=""
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class="">
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class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://mailman.jlab.org/mailman/listinfo/dsg-ltcc"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://mailman.jlab.org/mailman/listinfo/dsg-ltcc</a><br
class="">
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</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
George Jacobs
Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
STE 12
12000 Jefferson Ave.
Newport News, VA 23606
(office) 757-269-7115
(cell) 757-876-0480
(email) <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" moz-do-not-send="true">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>
(website) <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://userweb.jlab.org/%7Ejacobsg" moz-do-not-send="true">https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg</a></pre>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
George Jacobs
Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
STE 12
12000 Jefferson Ave.
Newport News, VA 23606
(office) 757-269-7115
(cell) 757-876-0480
(email) <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" moz-do-not-send="true">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>
(website) <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://userweb.jlab.org/%7Ejacobsg" moz-do-not-send="true">https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg</a></pre>
<br class="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br class="">
<pre class="" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
George Jacobs
Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
STE 12
12000 Jefferson Ave.
Newport News, VA 23606
(office) 757-269-7115
(cell) 757-876-0480
(email) <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" moz-do-not-send="true">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>
(website) <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://userweb.jlab.org/%7Ejacobsg" moz-do-not-send="true">https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg</a></pre>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
George Jacobs
Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
STE 12
12000 Jefferson Ave.
Newport News, VA 23606
(office) 757-269-7115
(cell) 757-876-0480
(email) <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" moz-do-not-send="true">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>
(website) <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://userweb.jlab.org/%7Ejacobsg" moz-do-not-send="true">https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg</a></pre>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
George Jacobs
Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
STE 12
12000 Jefferson Ave.
Newport News, VA 23606
(office) 757-269-7115
(cell) 757-876-0480
(email) <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>
(website) <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg">https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg</a></pre>
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