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dear george, marc, and brian</div>
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please come downstairs tomorrow at <b>0930 hrs</b> so that i can understand the issues.<br>
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amrit<br>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Dsg-rtpc <dsg-rtpc-bounces@jlab.org> on behalf of George Jacobs <jacobsg@jlab.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 6, 2019 4:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Sebastian Kuhn; Carlos Ayerbe Gayoso; Bill Crahen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> dsg-rtpc@jlab.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dsg-rtpc] relief valve on non-flammable gas supply to gas panel</font>
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Hi sebastian,</div>
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I am willing to go along with whatever Bill wants as long as everyone understands that the system may not work exactly as intended.
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<b>Unexpected gas loss - </b>An operator error in adjusting the pressure regulator may result in gas leakage out the relief valve and the cylinder rapidly going empty while in use. This is possible when the relief valve setpoint is lower than the maximum setpoint
of the pressure regulator. Low pressure relief valves tend to leak when the gas pressure is close to but below the setpoint. We would need to have extra gas on hand to take these issues into account. Gas cost is $325 per cyl and has a 4-6 week lead time. So,
we won't be able to replace empty cylinders if a problem develops during the run. The additional gas needs to be on-hand prior to the run.
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The double component failure scenerio of the Pressure regulator failing open at the same time the MFC also fails open is what we are protecting against. The combination of relief valves and flow limiting orifices limit the gas flowrate to prevent dector overpressure.
The orifices that are upstream of the pressure regulator limit max gas flow out of the cylinder to less that the capacity of the relief valve. The orifice just upstream of the MFC, further limits flow.
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We have some time before the Jan run, so we can play around with the system if we have the needed components. We would need to purchase 2 additional pressure regulators, $800. Additional ASME relief valves and orifices, ~$200. Additional fittings, etc may
also be required. <br>
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The MFC should be tested to verify proper operation at low inlet pressure, using the pre-mix gas, prior to purchase of the new components.</div>
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Cheers,</div>
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George<br>
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<div>-- <br>
George Jacobs<br>
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif">Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)</span><br>
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif">STE 12</span><br>
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif">12000 Jefferson Ave.</span><br>
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif">Newport News, VA 23606</span><br>
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif">(office) 757-269-7021</span><br>
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif">(cell) 757-876-0480</span><br>
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif">(email) jacobsg@jlab.org</span></div>
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<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Sebastian Kuhn<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 6, 2019 2:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> George Jacobs; Carlos Ayerbe Gayoso<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dsg-rtpc] relief valve on non-flammable gas supply to gas panel</font>
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<div class="" style="word-wrap:break-word; line-break:after-white-space">Hi George and Carlos,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Bill Crahen came to our RTPC design meeting today (just when Carlos couldn’t make it). It seemed to me that he and you guys are not quite on the same sheet yet - he suggested that we replace the pressure reducer we have with one that can limit
the pressure to perhaps 11-14 psig so that there simply is no way the pressure becomes too high. While this means extra expense, maybe we can save some money by having all 4 HeCO2 bottles manifolded together so only one pressure reducer is needed (I would
prefer this anyway since it will guarantee that the bottles are emptied uniformly and the gas composition is constant, which is not the case if each has its own pressure reducer). I will admit that I may not understand all the details, but I am hoping you
can perhaps meet with him or give him a phone call and straighten this issue out - ultimately, we cannot win approval of our gas system against Bill’s advice. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class="">Thanks - Sebastian</div>
<div class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On May 1, 2019, at 9:06 AM, George Jacobs <<a href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" class="">jacobsg@jlab.org</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="x_x_Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
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I have added an orifice just up stream of the MFC, FO5, OKeefe G-17-SS. He flow at 75 psi = ~17.8 slm and He flow at 15 psi = ~3.5 slm. Flow will be slightly higher for the 20% CO2 gas mix. Let me know if this works for you.<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
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Please find attached files.<br class="">
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<div class="">--<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
George Jacobs<br class="">
<span class="" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif">Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)</span><br class="">
<span class="" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif">STE 12</span><br class="">
<span class="" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif">12000 Jefferson Ave.</span><br class="">
<span class="" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif">Newport News, VA 23606</span><br class="">
<span class="" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif">(office) 757-269-7021</span><br class="">
<span class="" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif">(cell) 757-876-0480</span><br class="">
<span class="" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif">(email)<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org" class="">jacobsg@jlab.org</a></span></div>
<span class="" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif"></span><br class="">
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<div id="x_x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" class=""><font class="" style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b class="">From:</b><span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span>Bill Crahen <<a href="mailto:wcrahen@jlab.org" class="">wcrahen@jlab.org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, April 30, 2019 11:09 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span>George Jacobs<br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b><span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span>Bob Miller<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: relief valve on non-flammable gas supply to gas panel</font>
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<div class="" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<div class="" style="margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px">George, I could close MV3 and open MV4 and MV5 and directly pressurize the bubbler. These bubblers are glass, and they<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class="">will not<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span></u>be
connected to a system that can potentially expose them to 75 psig. Another note- a regulator is not a safety device. The relief valve (in this case) determines the system design pressure. If it seems more reasonable, we could install reliefs on the lines going
to the bubblers (which presumably should never see more than a few inches of water pressure).<br class="">
</div>
<div class="x_x_x_moz-cite-prefix">On 4/30/2019 9:56 AM, George Jacobs wrote:<br class="">
</div>
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<div class="" style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
Hi Bill,</div>
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We should plan to meet and discuss this system once the panel arrives. Initial tests will be performed with out any detector volumes. Tests with detector volumes will be performed later, once the detectors are ready. Initial tests will be to verify MFC operation
and transducer output.<br class="">
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<div class="" style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
I believe the MFC gas supply requirement specification is 10-40 psi. The pre-mix gas supply pressure regulator has a 0-50 psi output range. The MFC pressure rating is rated far higher, 1500 psi. Initial regulator setpoint should be 15 psi for testing.<br class="">
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<br class="">
</div>
<div class="" style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
The RTPC gas supply pressure system ends at the 3 valves, MV3, MV4, and MV6. There is no way to shut off gas flow downstream of these valves before it vents to atmosphere. Pressure cannot increase as the gas will simply vent to atmosphere via the RTPC bubbler.<br class="">
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<div class="" style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
The DMS and RTPC volumes are not capable of holding pressure. They are not pressure system componenets, nor are the oil filled bubblers. The oil filled bubblers will vent gas at ~0.1-0.2 inches water column or ~0.007 psi.</div>
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<br class="">
</div>
<div class="" style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
The current MFC maximum flow rate is 250 sccm. Even if the pressure regulator and MFC both fail open, the 0.017 orifice used on the high pressure side of the gas supply pressure regulators, limits gas flow to <10 slm.<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</div>
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<br class="">
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<div class="" style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
The pressure transducers are capable of much higher pressure that the RTPC and DMS volumes can handle. Since the transducers are connected to the DMS and RTPC, and to the vent bubblers via the DMS and RTPC volumes, pressure cannot build beyond what is required
to flow the < 10 slm flow to atmosphere in the worse case scenerio. The 10 slm flow is based on a multiple failure scenerio, ie the worse case, where both the gas supply pressure regulator and the MFC fail open.<br class="">
</div>
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<br class="">
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<div class="" style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
The He4 gas supply flows to a He gas bag or balloon. The pressure in the bag is at most 1-2 inches water column, 0.07 psi, and limited by the bubbler oil level. Helium bag gas supplies are a very common setup in many experiments.</div>
<div class="" style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
<br class="">
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<div class="" style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
In my experience, low pressure relief valves tend to leak. There is also a potential problem using a relef valve with a setpoint lower than the max output of the gas supply pressure regulator. Improper pressure regulator setpoint can result in the rapid depletion
of the gas supply. The gas has a 6 week lead time. So, we really don't want to go there.<br class="">
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Cheers,</div>
<div class="" style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
George<br class="">
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<span id="x_x_x_ms-rterangepaste-start" class=""></span></p>
<div class="">--<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
George Jacobs<br class="">
<span class="">Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)</span><br class="">
<span class="">STE 12</span><br class="">
<span class="">12000 Jefferson Ave.</span><br class="">
<span class="">Newport News, VA 23606</span><br class="">
<span class="">(office) 757-269-7021</span><br class="">
<span class="">(cell) 757-876-0480</span><br class="">
<span class="">(email)<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="x_x_x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jacobsg@jlab.org">jacobsg@jlab.org</a></span></div>
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<div id="x_x_x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" class=""><font class="" style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b class="">From:</b><span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span>Bill Crahen<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="x_x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:wcrahen@jlab.org"><wcrahen@jlab.org></a><br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, April 29, 2019 3:49 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span>George Jacobs<br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b><span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span>Bob Miller; Carlos Ayerbe Gayoso<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span>relief valve on non-flammable gas supply to gas panel</font>
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<div class="x_x_x_PlainText">George- the last version of your P&ID I have from you shows a 75 psig<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
relief valve on both the premix and He cylinder regulators. The gas<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
panel has several components that would not be happy with that, namely<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
the pressure transmitters and the bubblers (which are glass). My<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
understanding is that you only need to supply a required minimum<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
operating pressure to the MFC (which is 10 psig).<br class="">
<br class="">
If the relief valves had a 15 psig set point (McMaster Carr 4701K11,<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
ASME Sec VIII approved), at the flow rate your rotometer is set for and<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
the MFC rate would only lead to ~ 0.2 psi pressure drop for 300' of 1/2"<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
stainless tubing, so you could set the regulators at ~12 psig, which<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
gives you a 25% margin on the relief valve. Alternately, you could<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
install the relief at the gas panel (which might be wiser, as this low<span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
pressure unit would not be susceptible to ice, etc.).<br class="">
<br class="">
Everyone let me know your thoughts- Bill Crahen<br class="">
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<span id="x_x_cid:B1CAEDAE-BE85-48E0-A0FD-A48EAFB1D0AF@jlab.org"><RTPC-ValvePanels-5-1-2019.pdf></span><span id="x_x_cid:3BAD9BDB-590A-46F7-BCA9-20749B3BA0BB@jlab.org"><RTPC-GasSys-P&I-5-1-2019.pdf></span><span id="x_x_cid:5A5697ED-A910-40C4-874E-6BD01ADEF239@jlab.org"><RTPC-Gas-08-13-2018.xlsx></span><span class="" style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; text-decoration:none; float:none; display:inline!important">_______________________________________________</span><br class="" style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; text-decoration:none">
<span class="" style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; text-decoration:none; float:none; display:inline!important">Dsg-rtpc
mailing list</span><br class="" style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; text-decoration:none">
<a href="mailto:Dsg-rtpc@jlab.org" class="" style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">Dsg-rtpc@jlab.org</a><br class="" style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; text-decoration:none">
<a href="https://mailman.jlab.org/mailman/listinfo/dsg-rtpc" class="" style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">https://mailman.jlab.org/mailman/listinfo/dsg-rtpc</a><br class="" style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; text-decoration:none">
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