[EIC-CORE] [EXTERNAL] Re: CORE General Meeting in 35ish minutes

Tue Apr 5 11:11:37 EDT 2022

Hi Pawel

Thanks for distributing this first estimate of materials.
I will try to refine the amount of copper in the coil required in the next few days and send ya'll an update.

Cheers

Paul
________________________________
From: EIC-CORE <eic-core-bounces at jlab.org> on behalf of Pawel Nadel-Turonski <turonski at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2022 10:59 AM
To: jacobsw at indiana.edu <jacobsw at indiana.edu>
Cc: eic-core at jlab.org <eic-core at jlab.org>
Subject: Re: [EIC-CORE] [EXTERNAL] Re: CORE General Meeting in 35ish minutes

Hi Will,

Some time ago Paul sent this estimate for radial material in the current 3 T CORE solenoid design.

Inner vacuum vessel ~ 4 cm Al, density 2.5
Inner radiation shield few mm ~ 2 mm Cu, density 9
Coil 6 cm - a 5:1 mix of Cu and NbTi (i.e., with Nb =Ti, a 10:1:1 mix of Cu, Nb, and Ti)
Coil support cylinder ~ 7 cm Al, density 2.5
Outer radiation shield ~ 2 mm Cu, density 9
Outer vacuum vessel Al ~ 10 cm Al, density 2.5

The 5 cm of Cu in the coil is not negligible, but also not a dominant contribution. My suspicion is that an EIC KLM would work just as well with Cu as with Al, as we argued in the proposal, providing a significant overall risk reduction compared with other alternatives. The Belle solenoid is quite large, but has lower field. While these push in opposite directions, the field is likely the larger contribution and the cryostat may be a little lighter (it would be worth looking it up). I would, however, guess that the difference is not significant. The main idea of the KLM - replacing “dumb” towers with individual readout of each layer will likely give you the excellent low-momentum muon ID that you have at Belle. And wince we can optimize the flux-return spacing for scintillators without the legacy constraints of the RPCs - as you showed in your design included in the proposal.

Thus, indeed, as a first step one can do a pen-and-paper comparison of Belle and CORE and see if the difference is signifiant. But if we want to optimize the layout further, and perhaps more importantly have visuals for people who are not familiar with Belle, setting up a Geant model would probably be helpful.

An adaptation of the KLM for the EIC would be a very good candidate for a generic R&D proposal, so if that program actually materializes it could not hurt to be ready to take advantage of the opportunity!

Best,

        Pawel

> On Apr 4, 2022, at 5:16 PM, Jacobs, William W <jacobsw at indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Ciao --
>
>  a few comments and a question:
>
> a) I was having trouble during the solenoid coil material/construction
> discussion today at the CORE meeting -- Copper vs AL -- because I recalled
> that the Belle folks didn't worry about the mass/rad length (stated as "all
> the tracking and calorimetry is inside the coil" so who cares).
>
>   Turns out parts of my other memory were right, they did use Al for the coils
> (instead of Cu), as apparently this co-extrusion technology was alive many years
> ago. OTOH, they used a very robust cryostat design made out of stainless steel!
> It is not clear they especially tried to optimize for a low muon threshold ...
> so interesting question for CORE as to inner detectors + coil/cryostat + structure
> mass burden and what could be accomplished.
>
>   Here is article link with some details on Belle 1.5T solenoid construction
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__link.springer.com_chapter_10.1007_978-2D1-2D4757-2D9047-2D4-5F25&d=DwIFAw&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=aRyZltrEySmLlrFU4Ems83mNJ2sRhhXIX_v6ViWLNFQ&m=edUEpyMIfiEHozlxBz3aTfF3e-Mze6r37Tvip7Ga2kzH45YYebCXqmjTklho2siy&s=bxzIE0sDb9x1jdc38pIMOj_yOFwnq1YsqH0NA85585M&e=
> "Development of a Superconducting Solenoid Magnet System for the B-Factory
> Detector (BELLE)". You will need some library connection to get past
> Springer "pay wall" => I can send a personal copy if someone interested/requests.
>
> b) fyi ... the latest Belle II KLM upgrade thinking now includes investigation
> of other possible strip readout modes (besides embedded fiber into SiPM) in order
> to improve timing response (TOF?).
>
> c) questions: in the CORE proposal to a joint EIC NIM publication, is there a
> chance/plan to put proposal itself on arXiv soon? A scan of e.g., a recent ECCE
> meeting agenda reveals plans to publish lots of other stuff besides their
> detector proposal itself. If all this goes into some NIM "collection" (there might
> be also other CORE, etc.?) and it is all to be reviewed bla bla bla, this could
> stretch out for quite some time and come after user and other topical meetings
> where CORE detector info might be important.
>
>                                             Thanks,
>                                                     -- Will j.
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: EIC-CORE <eic-core-bounces at jlab.org> on behalf of Hyde, Charles E. <chyde at odu.edu>
> Sent: Monday, April 4, 2022 1:23 PM
> To: eic-core at jlab.org
> Subject: [EIC-CORE] [EXTERNAL] CORE General Meeting in 35ish minutes
>
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Our next general meeting of the CORE consortium will be held on zoom in ~35 min at 2:00 pm EDT
> Details at https://eic.jlab.org/core/index.php/CORE_Meetings
> zoom connection:
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__odu.zoom.us_j_99680062318-3Fpwd-3DQkIveGZMMmYwY2lidTMvWC9KdzRSZz09&d=DwIFAw&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=aRyZltrEySmLlrFU4Ems83mNJ2sRhhXIX_v6ViWLNFQ&m=vd-0GpLLzw80hBhUtmcpYk0rFgf1yF9DjXB8tiRuQONXcHuD54X3RBDe9OQ9wS03&s=s-B_BLELLOnnilKSZNlmwxLlySuVDEq7i2rMqh3Tn_8&e=
>
> Meeting ID: 996 8006 2318
> Passcode: 171839
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Dr. Charles E. Hyde
> Eminent Scholar and University Professor of Physics
> Old Dominion University
> 4600 Elkhorn Ave
> Norfolk VA 23529
> PS-II 2100D
> 1 (757) 683 5853
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> EIC-CORE mailing list
> EIC-CORE at jlab.org
> https://mailman.jlab.org/mailman/listinfo/eic-core
>
> _______________________________________________
> EIC-CORE mailing list
> EIC-CORE at jlab.org
> https://mailman.jlab.org/mailman/listinfo/eic-core

_______________________________________________
EIC-CORE mailing list
EIC-CORE at jlab.org
https://mailman.jlab.org/mailman/listinfo/eic-core
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://mailman.jlab.org/pipermail/eic-core/attachments/20220405/ed8150b6/attachment.html>