[Erd108] [External] RE: [External] eRD108 our bets meeting - Thursday 24th at 9 am

Sat Aug 26 12:13:01 EDT 2023

Hi Francesco,
You are right, since we are not going to get a firm set of numbers on the MPGD spatial resolution requirements from the Physics, Simulation or Tracking WGs, because they actually expect us to give that information (i.e. keep asking what is the resolution of a Micromegas or uRWELL).

We need to start giving answers that reflect our best knowledge. For example we can cite the numbers from your presentation on the preliminary results of CLAS12 data analysis with track fit residuals up to 400 um at 45 degrees for 3 mm gap.

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__indico.bnl.gov_event_19359_contributions_75932_attachments_47244_80128_CLAS-5Fresolutions.pdf&d=DwIFAw&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nBhCQ9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g&m=YqdO3N4PeneYetFwJjFEjLkDgSaZb00xYuC9sSp_rsvISyFW26FO0iT4DhSiF6Pm&s=iAeLLX2NmlQxVuL44Ga45uKsMnQlqPWqQw_iEC17ck4&e= 

Keeping in mind that space point resolution of the detector is worse than the tracking residuals. Actually simulation could be perform to extract the detector resolution from parameterization of the residuals vs. angle from these plots.

You are also right that playing with drift field can help with minimizing the ExB effect, however there is always a limit on how high the drift field can be (typically 1 to 3 kV/cm). If one want to rely on high drift field to control ExB, then we will have to pay close attention to the detector stability issues. I don't  know the typical drift field you operate MM in but my experience is that even for small prototype, above 2.5 kV / cm for uRWELL, the detector start having some sparks at nominal gain but maybe 2kV/cm it is enough in phi direction.

In z direction, for the thin gap, I think we will end up also implementing some sort of coarse timing cut (uTPC like selection) in the analysis for the very large angle to improve performance.
Anyway, there will be no free lunch

Best regards
Kondo

From: BOSSU Francesco <francesco.bossu at cea.fr>
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2023 2:11 AM
To: Gnanvo, Kondo (kg6cq) <kg6cq at virginia.edu>; erd108 at jlab.org
Subject: Re: [Erd108] [External] RE: [External] eRD108 weekly meeting - Thursday 24th at 9 am

Hi Kondo

it all depends on the actual requirements. And I am mainly worried about the resolution in z. (in phi the particles that will rich the dirc, for instance will cross the inner layer with not so large angle, and for the lorentz angle it can be mitigated with a higher drift field).

Anyway, taking into account your suggestion, I propose then to add to the first bulled "Particularly" in the forward and backward regions...

Cheers

Francesco

________________________________
From: Gnanvo, Kondo (kg6cq) <kg6cq at virginia.edu<mailto:kg6cq at virginia.edu>>
Sent: 25 August 2023 18:39:04
To: BOSSU Francesco; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>
Subject: RE: [Erd108] [External] RE: [External] eRD108 weekly meeting - Thursday 24th at 9 am

Hi Francesco,
Nice slides.
One quick question - Why on slide 9, you are worried about spatial resolution degradation only for the backward and forward section of the cyl. MM?
Is it because you really abandon the good spatial resolution requirement for the central cyl trackers?
The angle is up to 45 degree in the central region and at 10 degree you already start seeing significant degradation of the spatial resolution.
My view is that beyond 45 degree, it is hopeless anyway even with thin gap MPGD so I am not sure you are gaining anything.
Best regards
Kondo

-----Original Message-----
From: Erd108 <erd108-bounces at jlab.org<mailto:erd108-bounces at jlab.org>> On Behalf Of Francesco Bossu
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2023 11:13 AM
To: erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>
Subject: Re: [Erd108] [External] RE: [External] eRD108 weekly meeting - Thursday 24th at 9 am

Hi Matt, all

here the slides for the Micromegas part :
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__cernbox.cern.ch_s_MR7uVgOxjJnMkzV&d=DwIDaQ&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nBhCQ9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g&m=K15jQ8u51UkDR5R42UyHL8vqmt0DslnsISrdeIyCk3wrBXEgZAPU2TBZTiV2hcqQ&s=2b5nhwWcsA7QFL60W651pGbIUkL3FyMNc6EINQofKg8&e=

(I also updated the first and second slide with the new CEA-Irfu logo)

let me know if I should change anything

best
Francesco

On 25/08/2023 15:46, Gnanvo, Kondo (kg6cq) wrote:
>
> Hi Matt,
>
> This looks great indeed! Thanks for putting all these slides together,
>
> Just a few small changes:
>
>   * Slide 9: on the hybrid GEM-uRWELL cartoon, please remove the
>     mention of the XeCO2 on the title. Since you separate that from
>     the slides I sent initially as Marcus suggested, it should be a
>     generic independent of the type of gas
>   * Slide 10: last bullet point on the left "no benefit *for*
>     2-hit..."è"no benefit *of* 2-hits".
>
> Best regards
>
> Kondo
>
> *From:*Matthew Posik <posik at temple.edu<mailto:posik at temple.edu>>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 24, 2023 1:07 PM
> *To:* Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>; Gnanvo, Kondo (kg6cq)
> <kg6cq at virginia.edu<mailto:kg6cq at virginia.edu>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>
> *Cc:* Azmoun, Bob <azmoun at bnl.gov<mailto:azmoun at bnl.gov>>; Huong Nguyen
> <htn3r.uva at gmail.com<mailto:htn3r.uva at gmail.com>>; Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu<mailto:nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu>>
> *Subject:* Re: [External] RE: [Erd108] [External] eRD108 weekly
> meeting - Thursday 24th at 9 am
>
> Hi Kondo,
>
> Thanks. I have incorporated your slides into the deck:
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.dropbox.com_s
> cl_fi_s5ft94ku0x4w1p48pfv95_eRD108-5FproposalFY24.pptx-3Frlkey-3Dps69y
> ccdirf9y9nkn5odncn64-26dl-3D0&d=DwIDaQ&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nBh
> CQ9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g&m=K15jQ8u51UkDR5R42UyHL8vqmt0DslnsISrdeIyCk3wrBXEgZ
> APU2TBZTiV2hcqQ&s=FfGvjaF1h5wIxzve-uWyt3kehBV7HpCL1jdzT46obSw&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.dropbox.com_
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.dropbox.com_%0b>> scl_fi_s5ft94ku0x4w1p48pfv95_eRD108-5FproposalFY24.pptx-3Frlkey-3Dps69
> yccdirf9y9nkn5odncn64-26dl-3D0&d=DwMFAg&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nB
> hCQ9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g&m=7ludB-5tkxN30oeba8cir3KTrBmQzueYByG4Cj6u27Z3snGp
> PwTqSQa364_jK_vC&s=pbPKrA6fEK9E_NBKuqpu3pPuoayJRA6CyO2GHa9tc18&e=>
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
>
> Matt Posik
>
> Research Associate Professor
>
> Temple University
>
> Department of Physics
>
> SERC
>
> 1925 N. 12th St.
>
> Philadelphia, PA 19122
>
> USA
>
> TU Office: SERC Room 451
>
> Physics Office: SERC Room 406/4th Floor
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>
> *From:*Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 24, 2023 12:32 PM
> *To:* Matthew Posik <posik at temple.edu<mailto:posik at temple.edu>>; Gnanvo, Kondo (kg6cq)
> <kg6cq at virginia.edu<mailto:kg6cq at virginia.edu>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>
> *Cc:* Azmoun, Bob <azmoun at bnl.gov<mailto:azmoun at bnl.gov>>; Huong Nguyen
> <htn3r.uva at gmail.com<mailto:htn3r.uva at gmail.com>>; Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu<mailto:nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu>>
> *Subject:* RE: [External] RE: [Erd108] [External] eRD108 weekly
> meeting - Thursday 24th at 9 am
>
> Hi Matt,
>
> Please see attached the updated slides with additional slides
> describing the two thin gap hybrid configurations with  Ar-CO2 and
> heavy gas (Xe or Kr) based mixture .
>
> Let me know if you need additional material from me.
>
> Best regards
>
> Kondo
>
> *From:*Matthew Posik <posik at temple.edu<mailto:posik at temple.edu>>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 24, 2023 12:16 PM
> *To:* Gnanvo, Kondo (kg6cq) <kg6cq at virginia.edu<mailto:kg6cq at virginia.edu>>; Kondo Gnanvo
> <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>
> *Cc:* Azmoun, Bob <azmoun at bnl.gov<mailto:azmoun at bnl.gov>>; Huong Nguyen
> <htn3r.uva at gmail.com<mailto:htn3r.uva at gmail.com>>; Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu<mailto:nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu>>
> *Subject:* Re: [External] RE: [Erd108] [External] eRD108 weekly
> meeting - Thursday 24th at 9 am
>
> Hi All,
>
> I have updated the slides I showed today based on comments:
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.dropbox.com_s
> cl_fi_s5ft94ku0x4w1p48pfv95_eRD108-5FproposalFY24.pptx-3Frlkey-3Dps69y
> ccdirf9y9nkn5odncn64-26dl-3D0&d=DwIDaQ&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nBh
> CQ9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g&m=K15jQ8u51UkDR5R42UyHL8vqmt0DslnsISrdeIyCk3wrBXEgZ
> APU2TBZTiV2hcqQ&s=FfGvjaF1h5wIxzve-uWyt3kehBV7HpCL1jdzT46obSw&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.dropbox.com_
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.dropbox.com_%0b>> scl_fi_s5ft94ku0x4w1p48pfv95_eRD108-5FproposalFY24.pptx-3Frlkey-3Dps69
> yccdirf9y9nkn5odncn64-26dl-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=8Rk
> WGK8Ehr23aQ4XZaeJkKhdeUjRK7rjlS9Ivaen0wM&m=0IL9bd65zuFbF6x9Q8JCI3V7T_E
> a-1ZV1HB9OSt-DuOQnpVdm9vNO20wCvbc4ZLz&s=HSXiHaC9psaWF_NSw-fssZOGfrGTwL
> poVwKswhgvNdE&e=>
>
> I included the slide about the split between R&D and PED that Kondo
> showed and left a place holder for the slide that he will prepare
> based on single and double GEM-uRWELL thin gap hybrid detectors. I
> also added a slide where in the deck the micromegas slides will be
> inserted. The right column of slide 3 will be filled in with similar
> goals as the left, but related to the micromegas R&D.
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
>
> Matt Posik
>
> Research Associate Professor
>
> Temple University
>
> Department of Physics
>
> SERC
>
> 1925 N. 12th St.
>
> Philadelphia, PA 19122
>
> USA
>
> TU Office: SERC Room 451
>
> Physics Office: SERC Room 406/4th Floor
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>
> *From:*Gnanvo, Kondo (kg6cq) <kg6cq at virginia.edu<mailto:kg6cq at virginia.edu>>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 23, 2023 1:05 PM
> *To:* Matthew Posik <posik at temple.edu<mailto:posik at temple.edu>>; Kondo Gnanvo
> <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>
> *Cc:* Azmoun, Bob <azmoun at bnl.gov<mailto:azmoun at bnl.gov>>; Huong Nguyen
> <htn3r.uva at gmail.com<mailto:htn3r.uva at gmail.com>>; Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu<mailto:nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu>>
> *Subject:* [External] RE: [Erd108] [External] eRD108 weekly meeting -
> Thursday 24th at 9 am
>
> Done
>
> *From:*Erd108 <erd108-bounces at jlab.org<mailto:erd108-bounces at jlab.org>> *On Behalf Of *Matthew Posik
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 23, 2023 12:18 PM
> *To:* Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>
> *Cc:* Azmoun, Bob <azmoun at bnl.gov<mailto:azmoun at bnl.gov>>; Huong Nguyen
> <htn3r.uva at gmail.com<mailto:htn3r.uva at gmail.com>>; Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu<mailto:nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu>>
> *Subject:* Re: [Erd108] [External] eRD108 weekly meeting - Thursday
> 24th at 9 am
>
> Hi Kondo,
>
> If there is time tomorrow, I would also like to present how we are
> currently calculating the angular resolution at the surface of hpDIRC
> in simulation. I would be interested to hear from others if there is a
> more accurate way to compute them.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Matt
>
> Matt Posik
>
> Research Associate Professor
>
> Temple University
>
> Department of Physics
>
> SERC
>
> 1925 N. 12th St.
>
> Philadelphia, PA 19122
>
> USA
>
> TU Office: SERC Room 451
>
> Physics Office: SERC Room 406/4th Floor
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>
> *From:*Erd108 <erd108-bounces at jlab.org<mailto:erd108-bounces at jlab.org>> on behalf of Kondo Gnanvo
> <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 23, 2023 12:05 PM
> *To:* erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>
> *Cc:* Azmoun, Bob <azmoun at bnl.gov<mailto:azmoun at bnl.gov>>; Huong Nguyen
> <htn3r.uva at gmail.com<mailto:htn3r.uva at gmail.com>>; Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu<mailto:nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu>>
> *Subject:* [External] [Erd108] eRD108 weekly meeting - Thursday 24th
> at 9 am
>
> Dear all,
>
> This is a reminder that we will resume our weekly eRD108 meeting this
> coming Thursday 24^th at 9 am.
>
> Meeting detail links:
>
> Wiki :
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__wiki.bnl.gov_eic_
> index.php_Eic-2Drd-2Dmeeting&d=DwIDaQ&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nBhC
> Q9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g&m=K15jQ8u51UkDR5R42UyHL8vqmt0DslnsISrdeIyCk3wrBXEgZA
> PU2TBZTiV2hcqQ&s=jak_GmMQ1zlXxnBEenZ0-ERVu-txRpQTUH_VKBx5_Ss&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__wiki.bnl.gov_eic
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__wiki.bnl.gov_eic%0b>> _index.php_Eic-2Drd-2Dmeeting&d=DwMF-g&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nBh
> CQ9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g&m=pLZTB7TSNS9gweo4AyIDbTSEOYIEiYnMspzQohylOYA7cHy7Q
> z9zw0wRfyleJ7x8&s=SPCUNR477UP-SlzItvAwmYRe-res2DyK3O2KIntDhp0&e=>
>
>
> Indico:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__indico.bnl.gov_ev
> ent_20358_&d=DwIDaQ&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nBhCQ9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g&
> m=K15jQ8u51UkDR5R42UyHL8vqmt0DslnsISrdeIyCk3wrBXEgZAPU2TBZTiV2hcqQ&s=c
> a2_U548KtxwVIPA4FtqW8caM7uNvja-t8S_2HR-sgw&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__indico.bnl.gov_e
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__indico.bnl.gov_e%0b>> vent_20358_&d=DwMF-g&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nBhCQ9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g
> &m=pLZTB7TSNS9gweo4AyIDbTSEOYIEiYnMspzQohylOYA7cHy7Qz9zw0wRfyleJ7x8&s=
> ZMDiIpAepKKVkYicHgX-MwVqrDCFWl9FjEX9lXTjOi8&e=>
>
>
> Zoom:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__virginia.zoom.us_
> j_91920338307-3Fpwd-3DTEF3VDhlVUN0UnBIY0xkeWxqMXprQT09&d=DwIDaQ&c=CJqE
> zB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nBhCQ9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g&m=K15jQ8u51UkDR5R42UyHL8vq
> mt0DslnsISrdeIyCk3wrBXEgZAPU2TBZTiV2hcqQ&s=06lwfiSDTC2434MiccRrCGJ_hcQ
> d4iifE8P5KUKa6xc&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__virginia.zoom.us
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__virginia.zoom.us%0b>> _j_91920338307-3Fpwd-3DTEF3VDhlVUN0UnBIY0xkeWxqMXprQT09&d=DwMF-g&c=CJq
> EzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nBhCQ9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g&m=pLZTB7TSNS9gweo4AyIDbTS
> EOYIEiYnMspzQohylOYA7cHy7Qz9zw0wRfyleJ7x8&s=_IvdCEfFQ7L3jnvoo8eJN_LUBp
> WHdYoYCEcZC5aSH6Y&e=>
>
>
> The meeting will be dedicated to the preparation of the EIC project
> R&D - DAC meeting where we have our talk on eRD108 progress report
> scheduled on August 28^th morning.
>
> Please find details on the Indico link above
>
> Best regards
>
> Kondo
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Erd108 mailing list
> Erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:Erd108 at jlab.org>
> https://mailman.jlab.org/mailman/listinfo/erd108

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