[Erd108] [EXTERNAL] RE: call for FY24 R&D proposals and reports
Marcus Hohlmann
hohlmann at fit.edu
Thu Jul 6 14:26:04 EDT 2023
Hi Alexander,
Please see inline below.
Thanks,
Marcus Hohlmann
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Prof. Marcus Hohlmann Email: hohlmann at fit.edu<mailto:hohlmann at fit.edu>
Dept. of Aerospace, Physics & Space Sciences Phone: +1 (321) 674-7275
F.W. Olin Physical Science Building Fax : +1 (321) 674-7482
Florida Institute of Technology
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From: Kiselev, Alexander <ayk at bnl.gov>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2023 2:12 PM
To: Marcus Hohlmann <hohlmann at fit.edu>; Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org>; Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu>
Cc: Matthew Posik <posik at temple.edu>; erd108 at jlab.org; Woody, Craig <woody at bnl.gov>; Azmoun, Bob <azmoun at bnl.gov>; Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>; Huong Nguyen <htn3r.uva at gmail.com>; matt posik <mposik1983 at gmail.com>; Annalisa D'Angelo <annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it>
Subject: Re: call for FY24 R&D proposals and reports
Hello Colleagues,
we discussed this also with Craig briefly, and it is more or less clear that if there is no foil design work, no beam tests, and no use of the X-ray stand, we are out of the picture this time.
That's Ok, we can focus on other work for the time being.
Ø You are welcome to join INFN and TU on foil design. See the proposal draft.
Discussion about the the Generic R&D program can certainly wait till more quiet times.
Yet, what is exactly the plan about the cylindrical prototype, if there is no funding request for a beam test next year?
Ø We will proceed as described in the proposal draft. Remember that this R&D will not be supported beyond fall 23. If down the road we go to another beam test for some other detector, we will bring the cylindrical one along and run it “parasitically”. But not in FY24.
Ø
And my last comment is that the formfactor of course matters, but pi*(0.6)^2 / 6 is pretty much of the same order number in terms of the cm^2 count as the cylindrical foil. EIC is a small detector 🙂.
Ø I agree with the pi*r^2 (except r=0.5, not 0.6), but why /6? Half a disk is /2. I get 0.4 m^2 for a half disk vs. 0.25m^ for the cylindrical foil.
Ø And of course the shapes are very different.
Cheers,
Alexander.
________________________________
From: Marcus Hohlmann <hohlmann at fit.edu<mailto:hohlmann at fit.edu>>
Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2023 1:57 PM
To: Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>; Kiselev, Alexander <ayk at bnl.gov<mailto:ayk at bnl.gov>>; Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu<mailto:nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu>>
Cc: Matthew Posik <posik at temple.edu<mailto:posik at temple.edu>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>; Woody, Craig <woody at bnl.gov<mailto:woody at bnl.gov>>; Azmoun, Bob <azmoun at bnl.gov<mailto:azmoun at bnl.gov>>; Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>>; Huong Nguyen <htn3r.uva at gmail.com<mailto:htn3r.uva at gmail.com>>; matt posik <mposik1983 at gmail.com<mailto:mposik1983 at gmail.com>>; Annalisa D'Angelo <annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it<mailto:annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it>>
Subject: RE: call for FY24 R&D proposals and reports
I agree with Kondo that we could pursue this idea of re-using the existing foil for generic R&D, but for the project R&D it does not make sense to me to propose something that is of intermediate size.
Marcus
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Prof. Marcus Hohlmann Email: hohlmann at fit.edu<mailto:hohlmann at fit.edu>
Dept. of Aerospace, Physics & Space Sciences Phone: +1 (321) 674-7275
F.W. Olin Physical Science Building Fax : +1 (321) 674-7482
Florida Institute of Technology
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From: Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2023 1:51 PM
To: Kiselev, Alexander <ayk at bnl.gov<mailto:ayk at bnl.gov>>; Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu<mailto:nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu>>
Cc: Marcus Hohlmann <hohlmann at fit.edu<mailto:hohlmann at fit.edu>>; Matthew Posik <posik at temple.edu<mailto:posik at temple.edu>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>; Woody, Craig <woody at bnl.gov<mailto:woody at bnl.gov>>; Azmoun, Bob <azmoun at bnl.gov<mailto:azmoun at bnl.gov>>; Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>>; Huong Nguyen <htn3r.uva at gmail.com<mailto:htn3r.uva at gmail.com>>; matt posik <mposik1983 at gmail.com<mailto:mposik1983 at gmail.com>>; Annalisa D'Angelo <annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it<mailto:annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it>>
Subject: RE: call for FY24 R&D proposals and reports
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Hi Alexander,
I understand your arguments, but keep in mind that we need to complete the R&D program on the cyl uRWELL (even if we don’t request money for it) and come to a conclusion that will lead to publication in a peer-review paper. Even if the beam test was not successful, we have no reason to believe that the uRWELL foils itself has any issue so we will refurbish the cathode (I strongly will propose the honeycomb option) and re-build a cyl detector, take data and conclude the this R&D phase.
Remember the whole cylindrical uRWELL was an R&D on its own and we cannot just throw it away like that.
However, I am favor in asking for funding to build flat prototypes based on the same design as the cylindrical uRWELL (save money and time). Actually we have been thinking about that and discussed the idea last week for generic R&D proposal that we will submit on thin gap development. There we will have less restriction in timeline and will be able to do a clean job.
If you are interested in joining the Generic R&D, that would be great
Best regards
Kondo
From: Kiselev, Alexander <ayk at bnl.gov<mailto:ayk at bnl.gov>>
Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2023 1:13 PM
To: Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu<mailto:nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu>>; Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>
Cc: Marcus Hohlmann <hohlmann at fit.edu<mailto:hohlmann at fit.edu>>; Matthew Posik <posik at temple.edu<mailto:posik at temple.edu>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>; Woody, Craig <woody at bnl.gov<mailto:woody at bnl.gov>>; Azmoun, Bob <azmoun at bnl.gov<mailto:azmoun at bnl.gov>>; Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>>; Huong Nguyen <htn3r.uva at gmail.com<mailto:htn3r.uva at gmail.com>>; matt posik <mposik1983 at gmail.com<mailto:mposik1983 at gmail.com>>; Annalisa D'Angelo <annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it<mailto:annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: call for FY24 R&D proposals and reports
Hi All,
Sorry for coming too late with all this. Also, stupid me lost the link to Overleaf. Can please somebody re-send it to me? But looking into the budget proposals, I'm now really getting puzzled. So, we are not going to repeat the cylindrical uRWell test at Fermilab ever? Or what is the idea now? I understand we cannot ask money for the cylindrical stuff, but for the flat one of course we can! And pretend we bring a ~$30k "in-kind" to this party (the cost of two foils).
Under these circumstances (and if I was allowed to work on this topic myself) I'd certainly consider to recycle a good fraction of the BiZ enclosure design, adjust it to a flattened pair of cylindrical foils, ask for ~$3k M&S + ~$25k travel money, and pretend that - given the circumstances - we are proposing a low risk, low channel count and already to a large extent existing solution for this endcap, assuming a 6 (or say 8) sector design. Rephrasing what Marcus said yesterday: are we otherwise proposing 180 degree sectors only because we are not interested in building the smaller ones? Anyway, even if the cylindrical foils got damaged, we with Craig still have enough money in our CERN account to ask Rui fix them (or disconnect the faulty segments), without even asking the project for any new money. I don't know. If anything in our proposal was going to be funded, from my perspective it is this part, which is kind of a no-brainer. But then please we need somebody to lead this effort. I personally can only help adjusting the enclosure design, and hopefully when the dust settles, be allowed to go to Fermilab next Spring with you.
Cheers,
Alexander.
________________________________
From: Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu<mailto:nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu>>
Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2023 9:27 AM
To: Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>
Cc: Marcus Hohlmann <hohlmann at fit.edu<mailto:hohlmann at fit.edu>>; Kiselev, Alexander <ayk at bnl.gov<mailto:ayk at bnl.gov>>; Matthew Posik <posik at temple.edu<mailto:posik at temple.edu>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>; Woody, Craig <woody at bnl.gov<mailto:woody at bnl.gov>>; Azmoun, Bob <azmoun at bnl.gov<mailto:azmoun at bnl.gov>>; Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>>; Huong Nguyen <htn3r.uva at gmail.com<mailto:htn3r.uva at gmail.com>>; matt posik <mposik1983 at gmail.com<mailto:mposik1983 at gmail.com>>; Annalisa D'Angelo <annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it<mailto:annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it>>
Subject: Re: call for FY24 R&D proposals and reports
Dear All,
Just to support Alexander's approach I would like to inform you that in my lab there are 4-5 GEM foils (framed, ready to be used) trapezoid shape, size: X - 27.5 x 44.5. Y - 47.5 cm. (active area).
Needed construction space and test facility are available.
So, the "mechanical" step can be very close to pre production prototype.
I am sure that the needed size (and shape) MMG can be prepared in one year. It should be confirmed of course.
Best regards, Nikolai.
On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 1:52 AM Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>> wrote:
Hi Alexander,
I see your point, but in that case I would argue that since the design and tooling are already available, we can just request funding for the fabrication of the uRWELL PCB from CERN if you think a full detector could be assembled within a year.
This way, we still get to complete the R&D on the cylindrical in parallel
Best regards
Kondo
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From: Marcus Hohlmann <hohlmann at fit.edu<mailto:hohlmann at fit.edu>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 11:20:08 PM
To: Kiselev, Alexander <ayk at bnl.gov<mailto:ayk at bnl.gov>>; Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>; Matthew Posik <posik at temple.edu<mailto:posik at temple.edu>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>; Woody, Craig <woody at bnl.gov<mailto:woody at bnl.gov>>; Azmoun, Bob <azmoun at bnl.gov<mailto:azmoun at bnl.gov>>; Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>>; Huong Nguyen <htn3r.uva at gmail.com<mailto:htn3r.uva at gmail.com>>; Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu<mailto:nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu>>; matt posik <mposik1983 at gmail.com<mailto:mposik1983 at gmail.com>>; Annalisa D'Angelo <annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it<mailto:annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: call for FY24 R&D proposals and reports
Hi Alexander,
We are already in the process of testing that medium-size with the cylindrical detector, so I don’t think there is much point to flattening it out and building yet another intermediate-size gas envelope.
Marcus
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Prof. Marcus Hohlmann Email: hohlmann at fit.edu<mailto:hohlmann at fit.edu>
Dept. of Aerospace, Physics & Space Sciences Phone: +1 (321) 674-7275
F.W. Olin Physical Science Building Fax : +1 (321) 674-7482
Florida Institute of Technology
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From: Kiselev, Alexander <ayk at bnl.gov<mailto:ayk at bnl.gov>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2023 5:12 PM
To: Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>; Matthew Posik <posik at temple.edu<mailto:posik at temple.edu>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>; Woody, Craig <woody at bnl.gov<mailto:woody at bnl.gov>>; Azmoun, Bob <azmoun at bnl.gov<mailto:azmoun at bnl.gov>>; Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>>; Huong Nguyen <htn3r.uva at gmail.com<mailto:htn3r.uva at gmail.com>>; Marcus Hohlmann <hohlmann at fit.edu<mailto:hohlmann at fit.edu>>; Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu<mailto:nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu>>; matt posik <mposik1983 at gmail.com<mailto:mposik1983 at gmail.com>>; Annalisa D'Angelo <annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it<mailto:annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it>>
Subject: Re: call for FY24 R&D proposals and reports
Caution: This email originated from outside of Florida Tech. Do not act upon, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
Hi All,
actually, after some thinking, I still don't understand why cannot we propose reusing the existing cylindrical prototype foils in a flat configuration, in addition to building a large dummy mockup, in the same proposal. The rationale is that indeed one year is not enough to build a large one, fine, but what's wrong about pretending we test a medium size one on the readout side, as an intermediate step to whatever happens past FY24, along with exploring mechanical and Co limitations of a full size detector? Then, whatever happens after FY24, we claim that we know how to build large frames, and we know that a reasonable size uRWell with a sparse readout works, beyond which point a full size working detector is the only remaining option to proceed. Otherwise we will always be kind of missing this intermediate scaling step from ~10cm to ~1m, to formulate a credible proposal next time IMHO.
Cheers,
Alexander.
________________________________
From: Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 3:52 PM
To: Matthew Posik <posik at temple.edu<mailto:posik at temple.edu>>; Kiselev, Alexander <ayk at bnl.gov<mailto:ayk at bnl.gov>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>; Woody, Craig <woody at bnl.gov<mailto:woody at bnl.gov>>; Azmoun, Bob <azmoun at bnl.gov<mailto:azmoun at bnl.gov>>; Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>>; Huong Nguyen <htn3r.uva at gmail.com<mailto:htn3r.uva at gmail.com>>; Marcus Hohlmann <hohlmann at fit.edu<mailto:hohlmann at fit.edu>>; Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu<mailto:nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu>>; matt posik <mposik1983 at gmail.com<mailto:mposik1983 at gmail.com>>; Annalisa D'Angelo <annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it<mailto:annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it>>
Subject: FW: call for FY24 R&D proposals and reports
From: Matthew Posik <posik at temple.edu<mailto:posik at temple.edu>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 3:07 PM
To: Kiselev, Alexander <ayk at bnl.gov<mailto:ayk at bnl.gov>>; Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>; Woody, Craig <woody at bnl.gov<mailto:woody at bnl.gov>>; Azmoun, Bob <azmoun at bnl.gov<mailto:azmoun at bnl.gov>>; Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>>; Huong Nguyen <htn3r.uva at gmail.com<mailto:htn3r.uva at gmail.com>>; Marcus Hohlmann <hohlmann at fit.edu<mailto:hohlmann at fit.edu>>; Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu<mailto:nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu>>; matt posik <mposik1983 at gmail.com<mailto:mposik1983 at gmail.com>>; Annalisa D'Angelo <annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it<mailto:annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it>>
Subject: Re: [External] Re: [Erd108] Quick meeting today
Hi Alexander,
Meeting is at 3PM
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__virginia.zoom.us_j_91920338307-3Fpwd-3DTEF3VDhlVUN0UnBIY0xkeWxqMXprQT09&d=DwIGaQ&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nBhCQ9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g&m=Pelb0jauiYqUE0UtRrxivecQ5iytnvrzuvYgW7VJQTzAfF3WMpxRiDqibksAf1aG&s=qOm1qIz8oUlnnr2VyxqWp5RwiXpUsMzP7lFXi9n40rM&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__virginia.zoom.us_j_91920338307-3Fpwd-3DTEF3VDhlVUN0UnBIY0xkeWxqMXprQT09&d=DwMF-g&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=8RkWGK8Ehr23aQ4XZaeJkKhdeUjRK7rjlS9Ivaen0wM&m=mCRtGUKmHqbrbg8ACkHGi96MdxS5nCZN6BVBkoJkx7QKBQolCgA0MdEViPVw4PoZ&s=hxn-GlUeHzpN-aXWPYHSa_oBghIymKr4ZppsvUrI_04&e=>
Matt Posik
Research Associate Professor
Temple University
Department of Physics
SERC
1925 N. 12th St.
Philadelphia, PA 19122
USA
TU Office: SERC Room 451
Physics Office: SERC Room 406/4th Floor
________________________________
From: Kiselev, Alexander <ayk at bnl.gov<mailto:ayk at bnl.gov>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 3:06 PM
To: Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>; Woody, Craig <woody at bnl.gov<mailto:woody at bnl.gov>>; Azmoun, Bob <azmoun at bnl.gov<mailto:azmoun at bnl.gov>>; Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>>; Huong Nguyen <htn3r.uva at gmail.com<mailto:htn3r.uva at gmail.com>>; Marcus Hohlmann <hohlmann at fit.edu<mailto:hohlmann at fit.edu>>; Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu<mailto:nikolai.smirnov at yale.edu>>; matt posik <mposik1983 at gmail.com<mailto:mposik1983 at gmail.com>>; Annalisa D'Angelo <annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it<mailto:annalisa.dangelo at roma2.infn.it>>
Subject: [External] Re: [Erd108] Quick meeting today
Hi Kondo,
unless the meeting took place at 2pm already, hat is the zoom link?
Cheers,
Alexander.
________________________________
From: Erd108 <erd108-bounces at jlab.org<mailto:erd108-bounces at jlab.org>> on behalf of Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 9:38 AM
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Subject: [Erd108] Quick meeting today
Dear all,
Let’s have a quick meeting today to finalize the eRD108 proposal
I would suggest 2pm EST. We can move the time around to whichever works for all
I will send the zoom links later but it is the same eRD108 in case i forget
Francesco:
If you can not make it, could you still take care of the Micromegas section of the document addressing both progress report and proposal
The document is due this Friday. We are frighteningly late
Best regards
Kondo
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