[Erd108] [External] Re: Additional simulation request

Wed Jul 17 11:26:14 EDT 2024

Hi Sourav,
What is motivating the discussion of ToF going to 5%?
Kondo

From: Sourav Tarafdar <stara at jlab.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2024 11:21 AM
To: Matthew Posik <posik at temple.edu>; Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org>; Gnanvo, Kondo (kg6cq) <kg6cq at virginia.edu>; erd108 at jlab.org; Shyam Kumar <shyam055119 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Erd108] [External] Re: Additional simulation request

Sure, I don't care about MPGD resolution. I wanted to stop the discussion of ToF going to 5% to further degrade the angular resolution from current  ~ 3.5 mrad and effectively making DIRC useless in low momentum region.
________________________________
From: Erd108 <erd108-bounces at jlab.org<mailto:erd108-bounces at jlab.org>> on behalf of Matthew Posik <posik at temple.edu<mailto:posik at temple.edu>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2024 11:13 AM
To: Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>; Sourav Tarafdar <stara at jlab.org<mailto:stara at jlab.org>>; Gnanvo, Kondo (kg6cq) <kg6cq at virginia.edu<mailto:kg6cq at virginia.edu>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>; Shyam Kumar <shyam055119 at gmail.com<mailto:shyam055119 at gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [Erd108] [External] Re: Additional simulation request

Hi All,

Kondo is correct, the MPGD resolution does not help DIRC PID due to multiple scattering of the inner layers, even when the MPGD resolution is 50um.  Adding the CF support just worsens the resolutions. Additional material will further worsen the angular performance.

Thanks,
Matt

Matt Posik
Research Associate Professor

Temple University
Department of Physics
SERC
1925 N. 12th St.
Philadelphia, PA 19122
USA

TU Office: SERC Room 451

Physics Office: SERC Room 406/4th Floor
________________________________
From: Erd108 <erd108-bounces at jlab.org<mailto:erd108-bounces at jlab.org>> on behalf of Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2024 10:39 AM
To: Sourav Tarafdar <stara at jlab.org<mailto:stara at jlab.org>>; Gnanvo, Kondo (kg6cq) <kg6cq at virginia.edu<mailto:kg6cq at virginia.edu>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>; Shyam Kumar <shyam055119 at gmail.com<mailto:shyam055119 at gmail.com>>
Subject: [External] Re: [Erd108] Additional simulation request

Hi Sourav
Ok, i will let Matt comment. My main point is whether good spatial resolution MPGD helps achieving the angular resolution requirements at the DIRC. It looks like even before including the CF material, we could not satisfy this requirement even with a 50um MPGD, so

  *   MPGD resolution does not help because multiple scattering of the inner layers is dominant factor
  *   0.5 mrad angular resolution requirements not met even before considering CF support structure
Maybe I am wrong though!
Best regards
Kondo

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________________________________
From: Sourav Tarafdar <stara at jlab.org<mailto:stara at jlab.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2024 10:27:32 AM
To: Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>; Gnanvo, Kondo (kg6cq) <kg6cq at virginia.edu<mailto:kg6cq at virginia.edu>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>; Shyam Kumar <shyam055119 at gmail.com<mailto:shyam055119 at gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: Additional simulation request

Hi Kondo,

Just during Monday simulation meeting Matt showed series of studies. Slide 15 in Matt's presentation concludes the effect of CF affects the angular resolution significantly, if I am not mistaken in final conclusion during that presentation ?

Regards,
Sourav
________________________________
From: Erd108 <erd108-bounces at jlab.org<mailto:erd108-bounces at jlab.org>> on behalf of Kondo Gnanvo <kagnanvo at jlab.org<mailto:kagnanvo at jlab.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2024 10:23 AM
To: Sourav Tarafdar <stara at jlab.org<mailto:stara at jlab.org>>; Gnanvo, Kondo (kg6cq) <kg6cq at virginia.edu<mailto:kg6cq at virginia.edu>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>; Shyam Kumar <shyam055119 at gmail.com<mailto:shyam055119 at gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [Erd108] Additional simulation request

Hi Sourav,
The spatial resolution was already irrelevant even before considering the CF material if i remember well from past studies.
I don't remember a simulation study that ever show any impact of MPGD resolution on the angular resolution at the DIRC level
Best regards
Kondo

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________________________________
From: Erd108 <erd108-bounces at jlab.org<mailto:erd108-bounces at jlab.org>> on behalf of Sourav Tarafdar <stara at jlab.org<mailto:stara at jlab.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2024 10:11:36 AM
To: Gnanvo, Kondo (kg6cq) <kg6cq at virginia.edu<mailto:kg6cq at virginia.edu>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>; Shyam Kumar <shyam055119 at gmail.com<mailto:shyam055119 at gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [Erd108] Additional simulation request

Hi Kondo,

I thought it was 3% Carbon fiber support structure causing multiple scattering which was basically making spatial resolution of MPGD irrelevant ?

Regards,
Sourav
________________________________
From: Gnanvo, Kondo (kg6cq) <kg6cq at virginia.edu<mailto:kg6cq at virginia.edu>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2024 10:07 AM
To: Sourav Tarafdar <stara at jlab.org<mailto:stara at jlab.org>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>; Shyam Kumar <shyam055119 at gmail.com<mailto:shyam055119 at gmail.com>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Additional simulation request

Hi Sourav,

It looks like the material budget already the dominant parameter for the angular resolution study at the DIRC level so it seems very unlikely that there would be any difference between 1% and 5% for the TOF layer

Best regards

Kondo

From: Erd108 <erd108-bounces at jlab.org<mailto:erd108-bounces at jlab.org>> On Behalf Of Sourav Tarafdar
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2024 9:55 AM
To: erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>; Shyam Kumar <shyam055119 at gmail.com<mailto:shyam055119 at gmail.com>>
Subject: [Erd108] Additional simulation request

Dear all ,

The request is mostly directed towards Matt and Shyam. I am wondering if it is possible to quickly do additional study on angular resolution @ DIRC location by increasing the material budget of barrel ToF from current 1.0% to 5.0% ? There has been chatter about increasing the material budget of ToF to 5.0% and before it takes a lead it will be good to know it's effect . Based on results shown in the Monday meeting I suppose it will further deteriorate angular resolution at DIRC. Also considering Shyam's method I think the analytical simulation method by Shyam will be good enough if DD4HEP sim is time taking.

Cheers,

Sourav
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