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hi Joerg,<br>
<br>
I absolutely agree that it is not obvious at all that this
"annealing" will lead to an improvement.<br>
The main reason is that it is cheap in labor and material do to it
and we have the time to do it.<br>
<br>
the higher the temperature the better or rather the faster the
annealing happens. The lower the temperature<br>
the slower the process. A typical thermodynamic behavior, and it of
course follows and exponential dependence.<br>
In other words at room temperature you wait for ever, at 45 degree
you wait a long time and at 100 degree it<br>
would goes much faster.<br>
<br>
cheers,<br>
Beni<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/3/23 09:02, Joerg Reinhold wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:MWHPR0501MB380178A5F5BA543EF0602CACC5A7A@MWHPR0501MB3801.namprd05.prod.outlook.com">
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Hi Folks,</div>
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<br>
</div>
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Another thing to check is the alignment of the SiPMs with the
scintillators. My understanding is there is a carefully adjusted
airgap. The detector has been handled by now numerous times,
removed and again inserted into the detector. Just slight
misalignments might lead to a loss in transmission to the
SiPMs. </div>
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<br>
</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="direction: ltr; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Beni makes the argument that sigma/peak does not change, which
seems indicative of primary photon yield not having changed. But
then, the paddles have quite some counterintuitive light
collection as a function of z; i.e., the transmission seems to
be best from the nose section. There are regions where
sigma/peak is changing.</div>
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<br>
</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="direction: ltr; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Other questions: would 45 C even be close enough to expect some
annealing to happen. Naively, I would have expected the required
temperature to be in the hundreds of degrees C.</div>
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<br>
</div>
<div id="Signature">
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Best,</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Joerg</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">Dr. Joerg Reinhold, Professor
(he/him/his)</span></div>
<div style="text-align: left; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Department of
Physics</span></div>
<div style="text-align: left; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Florida
International University</span></div>
<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Phone:
305-348-6422 | <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:reinhold@fiu.edu">reinhold@fiu.edu</a></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></div>
<hr style="direction: ltr; display: inline-block; width: 98%;">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Halld-pid
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:halld-pid-bounces@jlab.org"><halld-pid-bounces@jlab.org></a> on behalf of Timothy
Whitlatch via Halld-pid <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:halld-pid@jlab.org"><halld-pid@jlab.org></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 1, 2023 08:53<br>
<b>To:</b> Benedikt Zihlmann <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:zihlmann@jlab.org"><zihlmann@jlab.org></a>;
Fernando Barbosa <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:barbosa@jlab.org"><barbosa@jlab.org></a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:halld-pid@jlab.org">halld-pid@jlab.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:halld-pid@jlab.org"><halld-pid@jlab.org></a>; Werner Boeglin
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:boeglinw@fiu.edu"><boeglinw@fiu.edu></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Halld-pid] Start Counter "warming"</span>
<div> </div>
</div>
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The glass transition temperature is listed as 52C</div>
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<br>
</div>
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<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Timothy
Whitlatch PE (Virginia)</p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Hall D Chief
Engineer</p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Jefferson Lab</p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">757-269-5087</p>
</div>
</div>
<hr style="direction: ltr; display: inline-block; width: 98%;">
<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Benedikt
Zihlmann <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:zihlmann@jlab.org"><zihlmann@jlab.org></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 31, 2023 4:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Timothy Whitlatch <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:whitey@jlab.org"><whitey@jlab.org></a>; Fernando
Barbosa <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:barbosa@jlab.org"><barbosa@jlab.org></a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:halld-pid@jlab.org">halld-pid@jlab.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:halld-pid@jlab.org"><halld-pid@jlab.org></a>; Werner Boeglin
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:boeglinw@fiu.edu"><boeglinw@fiu.edu></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Start Counter "warming"</span>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">wow,<br>
that is the same epoxy that is use in boat building together
with fiberglass.<br>
<br>
so a 45 degree C is the max it seems.<br>
<br>
cheers,<br>
Beni<br>
<br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">On 10/31/23 16:08, Timothy Whitlatch
wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
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Hi All,</div>
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<br>
</div>
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It looks like the weakest link is the West System 105/205
epoxy. It is good to about 50C.</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
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Cheers,</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div id="x_x_Signature">
<div id="x_x_divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Timothy
Whitlatch PE (Virginia)</p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Hall D Chief
Engineer</p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Jefferson
Lab</p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">757-269-5087</p>
</div>
</div>
<hr style="direction: ltr; display: inline-block; width: 98%;">
<div id="x_x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Halld-pid
<a href="mailto:halld-pid-bounces@jlab.org" id="OWAbd3cd3cb-891e-4f44-365c-7bcac3be5e77" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E OWAAutoLink" moz-do-not-send="true">
<halld-pid-bounces@jlab.org></a> on behalf of Werner
Boeglin via Halld-pid <a href="mailto:halld-pid@jlab.org" id="OWAcbff8aac-2615-6589-5421-9ffa22e157cf" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E OWAAutoLink" moz-do-not-send="true">
<halld-pid@jlab.org></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 31, 2023 2:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Fernando Barbosa <a href="mailto:barbosa@jlab.org" id="OWA64be4fd6-b077-518a-d56d-08182debe9be" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E OWAAutoLink" moz-do-not-send="true">
<barbosa@jlab.org></a>; Benedikt Zihlmann <a href="mailto:zihlmann@jlab.org" id="OWA1bfea26e-5157-9eee-2d41-c4a63f21edc3" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E OWAAutoLink" moz-do-not-send="true">
<zihlmann@jlab.org></a>; <a href="mailto:halld-pid@jlab.org" id="OWA32b2e482-2bc9-1921-d591-91ba379d2190" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated OWAAutoLink moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">
halld-pid@jlab.org</a> <a href="mailto:halld-pid@jlab.org" id="OWA5362eb65-e46a-1c5f-1915-e7f6ca00ec0e" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E OWAAutoLink" moz-do-not-send="true">
<halld-pid@jlab.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Halld-pid] [EXTERNAL] Re: Start Counter
"warming"</span>
<div> </div>
</div>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;">Hi Beni,</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;">When warming the detector
remember that the scintillators are held together with a
self-clinging plastic packing wrap. I do not know how this
reacts when it gets warm (I think we still have some of the
material here somewhere), we do not want the detectors
getting loose or too tight. Also, the rohacell foam support
and the carbon fiber inner tube are glued to the aluminum
mandril and you might want to ask the engineers about the
temperature properties of the glue that was used.</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;">Kind regards</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;">Werner</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 9pt; color: black;">Werner
Boeglin</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 9pt; color: black;">Professor</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 9pt; color: black;">Dept. of
Physics, Florida International University</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 9pt; color: black;">CP236 ,
MMC</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 9pt; color: black;">11200, SW
8th Street</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 9pt; color: black;">Miami, FL
33199</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 9pt; color: black;"> </span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 9pt; color: black;">phone:
(305) 348 1711</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(5, 99, 193);"><a href="mailto:boeglinw@fiu.edu" id="OWAd173cd01-26bb-cd4a-1c51-25f966fbfb81" class="OWAAutoLink moz-txt-link-freetext" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" moz-do-not-send="true">boeglinw@fiu.edu</a></span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: black;"> </span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: black;"> </span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<div id="x_x_x_mail-editor-reference-message-container">
<div style="padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;"><b>From: </b>Halld-pid
<a href="mailto:halld-pid-bounces@jlab.org" id="OWA0271d2b4-634f-afff-74eb-df2a6b492b0d" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" moz-do-not-send="true">
<halld-pid-bounces@jlab.org></a> on behalf of
Fernando Barbosa via Halld-pid <a href="mailto:halld-pid@jlab.org" id="OWA9a5aec37-945b-924d-11ab-9b092133432a" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" moz-do-not-send="true">
<halld-pid@jlab.org></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 2:05 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Benedikt Zihlmann <a href="mailto:zihlmann@jlab.org" id="OWAe5b7a3bb-2979-1c4f-8f19-944e3b55b26b" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" moz-do-not-send="true">
<zihlmann@jlab.org></a>, <a href="mailto:halld-pid@jlab.org" id="OWAf743cae8-c052-1ba3-db37-6ba8e5250688" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated OWAAutoLink moz-txt-link-freetext" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" moz-do-not-send="true">
halld-pid@jlab.org</a> <a href="mailto:halld-pid@jlab.org" id="OWAffcb5667-427a-5bd7-46ea-6b5377631481" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" moz-do-not-send="true">
<halld-pid@jlab.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Halld-pid] Start Counter "warming"</span></p>
</div>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Note: This message originated
from outside the FIU Faculty/Staff email system.<br>
<br>
<br>
Hello Beni,<br>
<br>
Looking at the plots, I agree with your assessment of
significant gain degradation. However, I am a bit dubious
that the gain can be recovered by that much via annealing.
This will be an interesting test.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Fernando<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Fernando Barbosa <a href="mailto:barbosa@jlab.org" id="OWA64147f27-d7ea-0138-68e7-04b05439091d" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" moz-do-not-send="true">
<barbosa@jlab.org></a><br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2023 8:12 AM<br>
To: Benedikt Zihlmann <a href="mailto:zihlmann@jlab.org" id="OWAd4213a2a-5caa-c6a2-36a9-36b3544c92ca" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" moz-do-not-send="true">
<zihlmann@jlab.org></a>; <a href="mailto:halld-pid@jlab.org" id="OWA7ad01daa-e26b-ff25-1726-3e8b4d308813" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated OWAAutoLink moz-txt-link-freetext" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" moz-do-not-send="true">
halld-pid@jlab.org</a><br>
Cc: Fernando Barbosa <a href="mailto:barbosa@jlab.org" id="OWA987ab1a1-aed0-f845-70c9-b5a057737581" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" moz-do-not-send="true">
<barbosa@jlab.org></a><br>
Subject: RE: Start Counter "warming"<br>
<br>
Hello Beni,<br>
<br>
I suggest 40 to 60 degree C and 1 month of annealing
should provide considerable recovery. I would also suggest
keeping the bias off.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Fernando<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Benedikt Zihlmann <a href="mailto:zihlmann@jlab.org" id="OWAbd8d5ba8-bb7d-d8dd-6b05-7bedc7abb0d9" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" moz-do-not-send="true">
<zihlmann@jlab.org></a><br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2023 7:20 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:halld-pid@jlab.org" id="OWAf9e0eabb-831d-f6e3-a915-5ac0fc503c81" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated OWAAutoLink moz-txt-link-freetext" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" moz-do-not-send="true">
halld-pid@jlab.org</a>; Fernando Barbosa <a href="mailto:barbosa@jlab.org" id="OWA212a9f40-180a-1ba5-c695-769dd2bb8a07" class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" moz-do-not-send="true">
<barbosa@jlab.org></a><br>
Subject: Start Counter "warming"<br>
<br>
Hi Fernando, Werner,<br>
<br>
in view of the fact that we do see a significant
degradation in the gain of the Start counter response over
the years I was thinking if active "annealing" may help.<br>
see also:<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/halldweb.jlab.org/wiki/index.php/Start_Counter_Operations*Run_Period_Winter_2023__;Iw!!FjuHKAHQs5udqho!Nk-OYfMHDbkBaRlkuKDCils8sI-c1M2TiRC4IK3Omz3pN4U1-69uADQTkIB3RpB9iK3wYcztgQCBt_1Rmrw$" id="OWA9cc7b3cb-3f1b-2845-e6c8-d53ad1cfd1ec" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://halldweb.jlab.org/wiki/index.php/Start_Counter_Operations*Run_Period_Winter_2023__;Iw!!FjuHKAHQs5udqho!Nk-OYfMHDbkBaRlkuKDCils8sI-c1M2TiRC4IK3Omz3pN4U1-69uADQTkIB3RpB9iK3wYcztgQCBt_1Rmrw$</a><br>
<br>
It is not clear why this drop in gain occurred. It does
not seem to be related to a loss in light since the ration
of width divided by mean-amplitude has not changed much,
and in the nose area not at all (this is the middle
histogram of the plot). So the source of the loss in gain
may be related to the SiPM photo sensor itself?<br>
<br>
We know "annealing" helps with regards to dark current but
I am not aware of recovering gain.<br>
An active annealing can be employed by covering the photo
sensor area with a "heating blanket"<br>
and warm up the region to a certain temperature. The
question is what temperature can be considered "save" with
regards to the PCB board and electronics as well as the
plastic scintillators.<br>
<br>
how high in temperature do you think can we go without
affecting these parts? 70 degree Celsius or even more?<br>
The time frame for such an "annealing" attempt would be of
order 1 month.<br>
<br>
any comments?<br>
<br>
cheers,<br>
Beni<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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