<html><body><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000"><div>Hello Brad,<br></div><div><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div>I agree that an experiment to evaluate source terms from electron beams on thick targets, such as the one you describe, would be of great value. My colleagues who have been at JLab longer than I made such requests for beam time in one of the experimental halls and, unfortunately, never succeeded. To get beam time we would have to make a proposal to the Program Advisory Committee (PAC) and get its approval. Loosely quoting a comment on those chances: "You are competing against Nobel Prize level experiments, this will never fly". We have not totally given up yet. One could make an argument that we support these Nobel Prize level experiments by evaluating not only quantities related to radiation protection aspects, but also experimental backgrounds and radiation damage using Monte Carlo transport codes. Perhaps on this account, with support form some prominent JLab managers (Andrew? Mary?), we could apply for a couple of days of "technical time" in a hall that would not compete with experiments and could perhaps be accounted as machine tuning. Interest and participation from other DOE labs may help. <br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div>Short of getting beam time in a hall, we were considering the possibility of installing required hardware (space for target, diagnostic devices) in the beamline going to the Beam Switchyard Dump. The situation there is not ideal, there would be a lot of scatter and not enough room for time of flight fast neutron spectroscopy. Let me test the waters to see if we could get any support and find advice on the best strategy.<br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div>I am very familiar with SHIELD11 and measurements by Ted Jenkins and Ralph Nelson. Note that there is no sudden drop in sensitivity to photons above 20 MeV of Landauer's OSL - Landauer just did not evaluate its response to higher energies. The response depends on photon cross sections in the component materials, but the actual response will greatly depend on the material in which the OSL element is imbedded (and the resulting secondary charge particle field). In the US the current flavor of "dose" for protection purposes, the whole body Equivalent Dose, is defined at a depth of 1 cm in tissue. Landauer OSLs are calibrated for and report this quantity as "deep dose". However, in these high energy photon fields the maximum dose will occur much deeper. We can discuss technical aspects suitable measurement techniques if/when we have a sense that a proposal for these measurements has a chance to succeed.<br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div>I will get back to you when I get some feedback.<br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div>Best regards,<br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div>Vashek<br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div><br></div><div data-marker="__SIG_PRE__"><span style="font-family: garamond,new york,times,serif; font-size: small;" data-mce-style="font-family: garamond,new york,times,serif; font-size: small;" face="garamond,new york,times,serif" size="2">Vaclav "Vashek" Vylet<br>Radiation Control Manager<br>Jefferson Lab<br>12050 Jefferson Avenue<br>Suite 602-5<br>Newport News, VA 23606<br>Phone: 757-269-7551</span></div><br><hr id="zwchr" data-marker="__DIVIDER__"><div data-marker="__HEADERS__"><b>From: </b>"Andrew Hutton" <andrew@jlab.org><br><b>To: </b>"Vashek Vylet" <vylet@jlab.org><br><b>Cc: </b>"Mary Logue" <logue@jlab.org>, "Pavel Degtiarenko" <pavel@jlab.org>, "Kharashvili George" <Isotope-prod@jlab.org><br><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, February 17, 2016 8:14:10 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Fwd: measurements<br></div><br><div data-marker="__QUOTED_TEXT__">Vashek<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Could you please contact Brad. This might be a useful research direction. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Andrew<br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote class=""><div class="">Begin forwarded message:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:;" class=""><b class="">From: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">"Micklich, Brad" <<a href="mailto:bjmicklich@anl.gov" class="" target="_blank">bjmicklich@anl.gov</a>><br class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:;" class=""><b class="">Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">RE: measurements</b><br class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:;" class=""><b class="">Date: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">February 16, 2016 at 10:25:51 PM EST<br class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:;" class=""><b class="">To: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Hutton Andrew <<a href="mailto:andrew@jlab.org" class="" target="_blank">andrew@jlab.org</a>><br class=""></span></div><br class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Andrew:</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I appreciate you forwarding on my thoughts on radiation measurements to your Radiation Controls Group. I haven’t heard anything from them yet. Maybe they don’t think this is as good an idea as you and I do. Likely they have just been busy with other tasks. Would you be able to follow up with them?</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I have attached the manuscripts for the two AccApp’15 papers, which I finished yesterday (just in time for the final submission deadline).</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Thanks,</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Brad</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Hutton Andrew [<a href="mailto:andrew@jlab.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="" target="_blank">mailto:andrew@jlab.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, November 20, 2015 12:12 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Micklich, Brad<br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: measurements</span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> </div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Brad<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">It was good to meet you too! I passed your request to our Radiation Controls Group who should be contacting you directly. </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">I hope we can work something out. </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">All the best</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Andrew</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> </div><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On Nov 20, 2015, at 12:56 PM, Micklich, Brad <<a href="mailto:bjmicklich@anl.gov" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="" target="_blank">bjmicklich@anl.gov</a>> wrote:</div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> </div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Andrew:</span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">It was nice that we finally got to meet face-to-face at AccApp15 last week. I have attached pdf copies of my two presentations from the conference. I prepared another ppt file for internal discussion at a meeting this morning, and will try to get that into a form suitable for external distribution.</span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I didn’t manage to find your colleague Pavel whom you said I should talk to about those beam-on-target measurements. I’ve found that there aren’t really very many primary benchmarks for dose rate due to high-energy electron interactions with material. As a result, some of the analytical representations are (I believe) flawed. I think it would benefit the worldwide community to make a few good measurements to benchmark both the analytical equations and Monte Carlo simulations. I’d like to make measurements on two targets: what SLAC called the “standard target” which is an iron cylinder 12” long and 4” diameter (30.48 x 10.16 cm) and a copper cylinder approximately 14 cm long x 10 cm diameter, with the beam incident at the center of one of the circular faces. I would like to use electrons with incident energy 10 GeV (the same as the SLAC measurements), 6 GeV (the energy of the APS Upgrade), 1 GeV, and 0.4 GeV (the energy at which the APS linac injects electrons into the Particle Accumulator Ring). This should provide a good idea of how the dose at the various angles scales with energy. The angular range should cover from 0 to 180 degrees. I would propose to use dosimeter chips to record the dose, which would make the measurement completely passive. The SLAC measurements used LiF, which was used for many years in TLD dosimeters, and for which the variation of response with photon energy is presumably well known. At Argonne we are now using OSL chips provided by Landauer. While they are claimed to be linear in response up to high recorded doses, the upper limit of the energy range is given as 20 MeV, so I don’t know how well they respond to higher energy photons. We can find that out from Landauer, or perhaps the external dosimetry folks at either ANL or JLAB might know.</span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">At APS we can get 0.4 GeV beam into a suitable experimental space, but there isn’t anywhere to make the measurements at the higher energies (we could really only get 7 GeV now anyway). You expressed interest in these experiments, and I’d like to see if we can perform them at JLAB. While these measurements are conceptually simple, they could be complicated to due correctly, and involve putting beam onto a target in an open area which by its nature means that things are largely unshielded. I’m going to work on how much beam it would take, and maybe it will turn out to be something that’s not too unreasonable to do.</span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Best regards,</span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Brad</span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">----------------------------------------------------------------------------------<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">Dr. Bradley J. Micklich</b><br class="">Senior Physicist, Physics Division<br class="">Bldg. 203, Room A125<br class="">Argonne National Laboratory<br class="">9700 South Cass Avenue<br class="">Argonne, IL 60439<span class="xapple-converted-space"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Email:<span class="xapple-converted-space"> </span><span class="MsoHyperlink" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><a href="mailto:bjmicklich@anl.gov" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="" target="_blank">bjmicklich@anl.gov</a></span><br class="">Phone: 630/252-4849<br class="">Fax: 630/252-9647<span class="xapple-converted-space"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">----------------------------------------------------------------------------------<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> </div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><br><div><div class="AppleOriginalContents"><blockquote></blockquote></div></div><br><div class=""><div><blockquote class=""><div class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div><br></div></div></body></html>