[Moller] [EXTERNAL] Re: Blind analysis in Physics experiments: Is this trip necessary?

[Willem van Oers]

My reply is : wait for the time being.

Willem van Oers

==================================================


Dr. Willem T. H. van Oers, P. Phys.

University Distinguished Professor (Emeritus)

Past - Executive - Secretary of IUPAP Working Group 9


TRIUMF

4004 Wesbrook Mall

Vancouver BC V6T 2A3


Tel: 604-222-1047, X6151

Fax: 604-222-1074


email: vanoers at triumf.ca

==================================================


Department of Physics and Astronomy

University of Manitoba

Allen Physics Building

Winnipeg, MB R3T 2N2


Tel: 204-474-9817

Fax: 204-474-7622

==================================================

________________________________
From: Moller <moller-bounces at jlab.org> on behalf of Krishna Kumar via Moller <moller at jlab.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2023 9:54 AM
To: Jay Benesch <benesch at jlab.org>
Cc: moller at jlab.org <moller at jlab.org>
Subject: [Moller] [EXTERNAL] Re: Blind analysis in Physics experiments: Is this trip necessary?

No, is my vote.

Especially since PVES is uniquely positioned to study the main systematics blinded without any serious compromise. This is not true in many other experimental techniques/measurements.

Happy Thanksgiving.

KK

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 23, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Jay Benesch via Moller <moller at jlab.org> wrote:
>
> Given the systematic error requirement, perhaps the collaboration should think about doing the first run unblinded to make studying them easier.  First ten percent?
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttps-2D3A-5F-5Fnam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com-5F-2D3Furl-2D3Dhttps-2D253A-2D252F-2D252Farxiv.org-2D252Fabs-2D252F2311.13542-2D26data-2D3D05-2D257C01-2D257Ckkumar-2D2540physics.umass.edu-2D257Cce68f51dde0645dd121708dbec2fb6e7-2D257C7bd08b0b33954dc194bbd0b2e56a497f-2D257C0-2D257C0-2D257C638363461898558035-2D257CUnknown-2D257CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0-2D253D-2D257C3000-2D257C-2D257C-2D257C-2D26sdata-2D3DG-2D252BQRWwx1ZwKt-2D252Fq-2D252BkO6rbRQ5GxnxtZ-2D252F9icxygwvQkwA8-2D253D-2D26reserved-2D3D0-2526d-253DDwIFaQ-2526c-253DCJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw-2526r-253Dk2-2D3YiXM4PG72x9M5ma-5F2Q-2526m-253DGGeVVvomrqJ2AF52wDJkayzJrOu3LDOqTT7CY9SIJPHDuFqjdzld5S5COSOTQ4jL-2526s-253D0Qo79O-5Fr0nTxMxW2HnMyZWl-5FC85YmxmuOiS-2DLmwlmHA-2526e-253D-26data-3D05-257C01-257Cvanoers-2540triumf.ca-257Cfb656b973b8e4e3fa50d08dbec4d5e04-257Cc20535109cb34679a2d38f442e03b587-257C1-257C0-257C638363589301342851-257CUnknown-257CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0-253D-257C3000-257C-257C-257C-26sdata-3Dwk8WNVKHyVpXzemz6ybdbftWX3LhV3gxPsmQNkWSWe4-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=k2-3YiXM4PG72x9M5ma_2Q&m=x-Q_mUxFkvpI7jpQMBUJMFuWhMZ9ipC14P0io-LkDiX_mfcwUhTFXuucxF5Kis_8&s=vJJ6ZJGIPQuBgcjGTqn1aYl3pnIu3RtYbw-OOr5sCiA&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Farxiv.org-252Fabs-252F2311.13542-26data-3D05-257C01-257Ckkumar-2540physics.umass.edu-257Cce68f51dde0645dd121708dbec2fb6e7-257C7bd08b0b33954dc194bbd0b2e56a497f-257C0-257C0-257C638363461898558035-257CUnknown-257CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0-253D-257C3000-257C-257C-257C-26sdata-3DG-252BQRWwx1ZwKt-252Fq-252BkO6rbRQ5GxnxtZ-252F9icxygwvQkwA8-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwIFaQ&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=k2-3YiXM4PG72x9M5ma_2Q&m=GGeVVvomrqJ2AF52wDJkayzJrOu3LDOqTT7CY9SIJPHDuFqjdzld5S5COSOTQ4jL&s=0Qo79O_r0nTxMxW2HnMyZWl_C85YmxmuOiS-LmwlmHA&e=>
>
> Robert Golub
>
>    Based on the work of Klein and Roodman we present an alternate conclusion as to the charm of blind analysis in physics experiments.
>
> Discussion
>
> Based on the paper by Klein and Roodman [2] written in support of the use
> of blind analysis in physics experiments we have attempted to show that the
> method, introduced into science by medical researchers to solve a real problem,
> has little place in physics research, since, as the authors admit there is surprisingly
> little evidence for experimenter bias in physics research even taking into
> account the cases cited by Feynman [1] and Galison [3]. and the introduction of
> the technique has real costs in both the ability to study systematic errors that
> are often unknown at the planning stage of the experiment and come to light
> during the measurement and analysis and the ability to follow up unexpected
> results which may only show up after opening the box.
>
> The experience in medical research has shown that even double blind analysis
> is not sufficient to avoid experimental bias when the experimenters are
> really determined. Physicists on the other hand still have the ability to follow
> the advice of my mentor, Prof Gerrold R. Zacharias who often repeated the
> statement that experimental physics was really all about Character.
>
> [2] Klein, J. and Roodman, A. ’Blind analysis in nuclear and particle physics’
> Ann. Rev. Nucl. Part. Sci. 55, 141-63, (2005)
> _______________________________________________
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