[Dsg-ltcc] LTCC S5 test, C4F10 usage update

Stepan Stepanyan stepanya at jlab.org
Thu Apr 5 16:43:41 EDT 2018 

FYI
https://misportal.jlab.org/ul/Physics/Hall-B/clas/viewFile.cfm/2008-033.pdf?documentId=508

On 4/5/18 4:37 PM, George Jacobs wrote:
> Hi Mauri,
>
> As far as I am aware, there is a problem using C4F8O in the LTCC 
> because  the PMTs used are optimized for the light produced in that 
> gas. The wavelength of the Cerenkov light is different for C4F8O than 
> C4F10. The PMTs are optimized for the light produced in C4F10. Stepan 
> reported this result after testing with the C4F8O gas several years ago.
>
> F2 Chemicals is the only vendor of this gas that I am aware of.
> My contact at F2 Chemicals was Helen McNamee 
> <Helen.McNamee at f2chemicals.com>
>
> Cheers,
> George
>
> On 4/5/2018 2:35 PM, Maurizio Ungaro wrote:
>> Hi George,
>>
>> Thanks for the detailed email. We still need to see what is involved 
>> to have a designed approved recovery system. Volker just approved to 
>> start involving our designers (and you) on this.
>>
>> We also need to consider alternative gas.  Would it be possible to:
>>
>> 1. Get a new quote on C4F10
>> 2. Get a quote on C4F8O
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Mauri
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 5, 2018, at 1:53 PM, Patrizia Rossi <rossi at jlab.org 
>>> <mailto:rossi at jlab.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you George. Indeed is not a negligible amount...
>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>> # Patrizia Rossi
>>> # Jefferson Lab
>>> # 12000 Jefferson Avenue
>>> # Suite 5
>>> # Newport News VA 23606 (USA)
>>> # e-mail: rossi at jlab.org <mailto:rossi at jlab.org>
>>> # phone: +1 (757) 269 7740
>>> # fax: + 1 (757) 269 5800
>>> # cell: +1 (757) 528 7606
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 05/apr/2018, at 13:10, George Jacobs <jacobsg at jlab.org 
>>>> <mailto:jacobsg at jlab.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Patrizia,
>>>>
>>>> I believe the last quote was ~$140 per Kg, so 400 kg would be 
>>>> ~$56,000. This quote is expired. A new quote would be required.
>>>>
>>>> George
>>>>
>>>> On 4/5/2018 12:19 PM, Patrizia Rossi wrote:
>>>>> Dear George,
>>>>>
>>>>> thank you very much for your assessment concerning the C4F10 gas 
>>>>> needed to run 1 or 2 LTCC sectors in the Fall.
>>>>> May you please remind me how much 400Kg would cost?
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks
>>>>> patrizia
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>>> # Patrizia Rossi
>>>>> # Jefferson Lab
>>>>> # 12000 Jefferson Avenue
>>>>> # Suite 5
>>>>> # Newport News VA 23606 (USA)
>>>>> # e-mail: rossi at jlab.org <mailto:rossi at jlab.org>
>>>>> # phone: +1 (757) 269 7740
>>>>> # fax: + 1 (757) 269 5800
>>>>> # cell: +1 (757) 528 7606
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 05/apr/2018, at 12:01, Amrit Yegneswaran <yeg at jlab.org 
>>>>>> <mailto:yeg at jlab.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> george,
>>>>>> good e-mail.
>>>>>> question is even if we start procurement today will we have the 
>>>>>> gas in time, or will we have to say goodbye to the LTCC, 
>>>>>> temporarily at least!
>>>>>> amrit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> *From: *"George Jacobs" <jacobsg at jlab.org <mailto:jacobsg at jlab.org>>
>>>>>> *To: *"Maurizio Ungaro" <ungaro at jlab.org 
>>>>>> <mailto:ungaro at jlab.org>>, "Stepan Stepanyan" <stepanya at jlab.org 
>>>>>> <mailto:stepanya at jlab.org>>
>>>>>> *Cc: *"dsg-ltcc" <dsg-ltcc at jlab.org <mailto:dsg-ltcc at jlab.org>>
>>>>>> *Sent: *Thursday, April 5, 2018 11:53:58 AM
>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Dsg-ltcc] LTCC S5 test, C4F10 usage update
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Mauri,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If there are plans to run the LTCC this Fall using C4F10 gas, you 
>>>>>> will need to purchase an additional supply of this gas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I estimate that there will be <30kg of gas remaining in the 
>>>>>> supply tank at the end of this run. This amount of gas may not be 
>>>>>> sufficient to refill the S5 LTCC prior to running in the fall.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Assuming an average leak rate of 0.5 kg/day for LTCC S5 and the 
>>>>>> 75 Kg required to fill the sector, with a 200 day run time, an 
>>>>>> additional 175 Kg of C4F10 gas should be purchased in order to 
>>>>>> operate the S5 LTCC.  The start of the procurement process should 
>>>>>> not be excessively delayed due to the potentially long lead time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the run plan includes a 2nd LTCC sector, additional gas will 
>>>>>> be required. Using the same assumptions as for S5, a minimum of 
>>>>>> 175kg plus a contingency of 75kg, a total of 225kg should be 
>>>>>> purchased for this 2nd sector. This would bring the total minimum 
>>>>>> amount of gas required to 400 kg, in order to operate 2 LTCC 
>>>>>> sectors for 100 days with some small contingency to account for a 
>>>>>> small increase in the detector leak rate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If a 2nd LTCC sector is in the run plan, the leakage rate of this 
>>>>>> sector should be minimized prior to filling with C4F10 gas. Using 
>>>>>> our S5 experience as a guide we can assume that the S6 position 
>>>>>> will fill and operate the similarly if the box is leak tight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is significant additional complexity for the S2-S3 
>>>>>> location. If we take into account that the "nose" area of the 
>>>>>> LTCC box is where the majority of the leakage is concentrated, we 
>>>>>> can assume that the S2 and S3 position may have a larger leak 
>>>>>> rate due to the increased pressure at the "nose" due to the S2-S3 
>>>>>> orientation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is also some uncertainty as to how efficiently the S2-S3 
>>>>>> volume will fill with a shorter vent line due to the increase in 
>>>>>> height location of the S2-S3 volumes. Also, due to the 
>>>>>> orientation of the volume and location of the gas lines, there 
>>>>>> will be no direct measure of the pressure inside the detector 
>>>>>> volume or fill level associated with it as we have for S5 or S6. 
>>>>>> Pressure control may not be as straight forward as it is for S5.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The S2-S3 bubbler will need to be relocated to the top of the fwd 
>>>>>> carriage to become the vent bubbler. The vent bubbler location 
>>>>>> for S2-S3 will require an elevated shelf to maximize the 
>>>>>> separation column height for the C4F10 gas during filling.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> George
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/20/2018 1:58 PM, Maurizio Ungaro wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Thanks George, these are all good news.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Indeed we need to address your questions at the end.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Mauri
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         On Mar 20, 2018, at 12:56 PM, George Jacobs
>>>>>>         <jacobsg at jlab.org <mailto:jacobsg at jlab.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         Please find attache power point update of the C4F10 gas
>>>>>>         usage for the single sector test.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         -- 
>>>>>>         George Jacobs
>>>>>>         Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
>>>>>>         STE 12
>>>>>>         12000 Jefferson Ave.
>>>>>>         Newport News, VA 23606
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         (office) 757-269-7115
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         (cell)   757-876-0480
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         (email)jacobsg at jlab.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         (website)https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         <LTCC Single Sector Test
>>>>>>         Status-20Mar2018.pptx>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>         Dsg-ltcc mailing list
>>>>>>         Dsg-ltcc at jlab.org <mailto:Dsg-ltcc at jlab.org>
>>>>>>         https://mailman.jlab.org/mailman/listinfo/dsg-ltcc
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> George Jacobs
>>>>>> Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
>>>>>> STE 12
>>>>>> 12000 Jefferson Ave.
>>>>>> Newport News, VA 23606
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (office) 757-269-7115
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (cell)   757-876-0480
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (email)jacobsg at jlab.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (website)https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> Dsg-ltcc at jlab.org <mailto:Dsg-ltcc at jlab.org>
>>>>>> https://mailman.jlab.org/mailman/listinfo/dsg-ltcc
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> George Jacobs
>>>> Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
>>>> STE 12
>>>> 12000 Jefferson Ave.
>>>> Newport News, VA 23606
>>>>
>>>> (office) 757-269-7115
>>>>
>>>> (cell)   757-876-0480
>>>>
>>>> (email)jacobsg at jlab.org
>>>>
>>>> (website)https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg
>>>
>>
>
> -- 
> George Jacobs
> Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
> STE 12
> 12000 Jefferson Ave.
> Newport News, VA 23606
>
> (office) 757-269-7115
>
> (cell)   757-876-0480
>
> (email)jacobsg at jlab.org
>
> (website)https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg
>
>
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> Dsg-ltcc at jlab.org
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