[Dsg-ltcc] LTCC C4F10 recovery system
Maurizio Ungaro
ungaro at jlab.org
Fri Apr 6 17:41:41 EDT 2018
Thanks Amrit.
I think the best thing to do is to sit down with Bob and George next week and go over George’s breakdown (which is very nice by the way). We do need to give Volker a costs/labor estimate.
Dave would you need/want to be involved in this process?
Thanks,
Mauri
> On Apr 6, 2018, at 5:36 PM, Amrit Yegneswaran <yeg at jlab.org> wrote:
>
> this is more of a guesstimate based on the tasks george has listed and the inspections and training needed.
> the guesstimate is assuming cebaf's standard operating procedures and is based on my experience of how quickly things move.
> so it is not a work breakdown schedule; more like a knowledge based expert-system.
>
> of course based on the priority and the manpower it might be possible to accomplish the task sooner.
> amrit
>
> From: "Maurizio Ungaro" <ungaro at jlab.org>
> To: "Amrit Yegneswaran" <yeg at jlab.org>
> Cc: "George Jacobs" <jacobsg at jlab.org>, "Dave Kashy" <kashy at jlab.org>, "dsg-ltcc" <dsg-ltcc at jlab.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 6, 2018 5:18:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dsg-ltcc] LTCC C4F10 recovery system
>
> Hi Amrit,
>
> I did ask Bob and Goerge in an email to estimate the design / build of the recovery system. Bob will come back Monday I think.
> Could you elaborate on your 4 months estimate?
>
> Thanks,
> Mauri
>
>
> On Apr 6, 2018, at 5:12 PM, Amrit Yegneswaran <yeg at jlab.org <mailto:yeg at jlab.org>> wrote:
>
> mauri,
> george is saying that you talk to dave kashy and hallb engineering about how long it'll take to set up the system and have a trained staff to operate the system.
>
> good man george.
> "a good man always knows his limitations"
>
> i think it will take at least 4 months, from start to a trained staff.
> amrit
>
> From: "George Jacobs" <jacobsg at jlab.org <mailto:jacobsg at jlab.org>>
> To: "Maurizio Ungaro" <ungaro at jlab.org <mailto:ungaro at jlab.org>>
> Cc: "Dave Kashy" <kashy at jlab.org <mailto:kashy at jlab.org>>, "Volker Burkert" <burkert at jlab.org <mailto:burkert at jlab.org>>, "dsg-ltcc" <dsg-ltcc at jlab.org <mailto:dsg-ltcc at jlab.org>>
> Sent: Friday, April 6, 2018 2:49:55 PM
> Subject: [Dsg-ltcc] LTCC C4F10 recovery system
>
> Hi Mauri,
>
> I have made the requests for quotes on C4F10 and C4F8O. That's the easy part.
>
> The distillation unit design and fabrication itself requires experienced engineers to design it, pressure systems DA, welding, brazing, soldering, experts and inspectors. The sooner this begins, the sooner you will have a recovery system.
>
> Cheers,
> George
>
> On 4/6/2018 2:16 PM, Maurizio Ungaro wrote:
> Hi George,
>
> A leak of that size may be caused by a puncture in the window. To find a minimize the leaks we need to remove the sectors from the FC - even sector 5 I believe can be improved.
>
> I cannot answer the number of sectors that will be used. Management can do that once we have a clearer idea on what’s involved in having a recovery system and enough supply of the gas.
>
> In answering this email I also what to thank you and DSG for the work and care you’re dedicating to LTCC. Hopefully we’ll have a complete functioning detector for the end of the year.
>
> Yours,
> Mauri
>
>
> On Apr 6, 2018, at 1:50 PM, George Jacobs <jacobsg at jlab.org <mailto:jacobsg at jlab.org>> wrote:
>
> Hi Mauri,
>
> FYI, some of the LTCC sectors leak very badly. For example, LTCC S6 currently leaks ~600 liters per day or ~15 kg per day, in it's current state. LTCC S3 also leaks significantly more than 0.5 kg/day. So, you cannot use 0.5kg/day leak estimate for each sector unless they are repaired and leakage is tested. LTCC S2 was the 2nd best, only leaking ~46 liters per day or 1.2 kg per day, in it's current state. It looks like S2 and S6 leak rates have increased over time, S6 significantly so, which is typical since leak rates only get worse over time, not better.
>
> How many LTCC sectors are you planning to repair this summer? LTCC S2 is currently much tighter than S6 or S3. Not sure how well you can repair these while installed. Perhaps S2 can be improved in place if S3 is removed for repairs?
>
> George
>
> On 4/5/2018 6:01 PM, Maurizio Ungaro wrote:
> It looks like we can run each sector for 200 days with 175Kg each.
>
> I would ask a quote for 350, 700 and 1000Kg: 2, 4, 6 sectors (we would operate only 5 but this would give us more in storage).
>
> What do you think?
> Mauri
>
>
>
> On Apr 5, 2018, at 5:32 PM, George Jacobs <jacobsg at jlab.org <mailto:jacobsg at jlab.org>> wrote:
>
> What amount of C4F8O gas should I get a quote on?
>
> On 4/5/2018 4:51 PM, Maurizio Ungaro wrote:
> Hi George,
>
> From Stepan’s document, the C4F8O transparency is comparable to the C4F10’s one.
> The PMTs have been coated with p-terphenyl whic increase the response in the UV.
>
> It is worth investigating its price.
>
> Thanks
> Mauri
>
>
>
> On Apr 5, 2018, at 4:39 PM, George Jacobs <jacobsg at jlab.org <mailto:jacobsg at jlab.org>> wrote:
>
> That should read; the PMTs are not optimized for the light produced in C4F8O gas.
>
> On 4/5/2018 4:37 PM, George Jacobs wrote:
> Hi Mauri,
>
> As far as I am aware, there is a problem using C4F8O in the LTCC because the PMTs used are optimized for the light produced in that gas. The wavelength of the Cerenkov light is different for C4F8O than C4F10. The PMTs are optimized for the light produced in C4F10. Stepan reported this result after testing with the C4F8O gas several years ago.
>
> F2 Chemicals is the only vendor of this gas that I am aware of.
> My contact at F2 Chemicals was Helen McNamee <Helen.McNamee at f2chemicals.com> <mailto:Helen.McNamee at f2chemicals.com>
>
> Cheers,
> George
>
> On 4/5/2018 2:35 PM, Maurizio Ungaro wrote:
> Hi George,
>
> Thanks for the detailed email. We still need to see what is involved to have a designed approved recovery system. Volker just approved to start involving our designers (and you) on this.
>
> We also need to consider alternative gas. Would it be possible to:
>
> 1. Get a new quote on C4F10
> 2. Get a quote on C4F8O
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mauri
>
>
>
> On Apr 5, 2018, at 1:53 PM, Patrizia Rossi <rossi at jlab.org <mailto:rossi at jlab.org>> wrote:
>
> Thank you George. Indeed is not a negligible amount...
> ---------------------------------------------------
> # Patrizia Rossi
> # Jefferson Lab
> # 12000 Jefferson Avenue
> # Suite 5
> # Newport News VA 23606 (USA)
> # e-mail: rossi at jlab.org <mailto:rossi at jlab.org>
> # phone: +1 (757) 269 7740
> # fax: + 1 (757) 269 5800
> # cell: +1 (757) 528 7606
>
>
>
>
> On 05/apr/2018, at 13:10, George Jacobs <jacobsg at jlab.org <mailto:jacobsg at jlab.org>> wrote:
>
> Hi Patrizia,
>
> I believe the last quote was ~$140 per Kg, so 400 kg would be ~$56,000. This quote is expired. A new quote would be required.
>
> George
>
> On 4/5/2018 12:19 PM, Patrizia Rossi wrote:
> Dear George,
>
> thank you very much for your assessment concerning the C4F10 gas needed to run 1 or 2 LTCC sectors in the Fall.
> May you please remind me how much 400Kg would cost?
>
> thanks
> patrizia
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> # Patrizia Rossi
> # Jefferson Lab
> # 12000 Jefferson Avenue
> # Suite 5
> # Newport News VA 23606 (USA)
> # e-mail: rossi at jlab.org <mailto:rossi at jlab.org>
> # phone: +1 (757) 269 7740
> # fax: + 1 (757) 269 5800
> # cell: +1 (757) 528 7606
>
>
>
>
> On 05/apr/2018, at 12:01, Amrit Yegneswaran <yeg at jlab.org <mailto:yeg at jlab.org>> wrote:
>
> george,
> good e-mail.
> question is even if we start procurement today will we have the gas in time, or will we have to say goodbye to the LTCC, temporarily at least!
> amrit
>
> From: "George Jacobs" <jacobsg at jlab.org <mailto:jacobsg at jlab.org>>
> To: "Maurizio Ungaro" <ungaro at jlab.org <mailto:ungaro at jlab.org>>, "Stepan Stepanyan" <stepanya at jlab.org <mailto:stepanya at jlab.org>>
> Cc: "dsg-ltcc" <dsg-ltcc at jlab.org <mailto:dsg-ltcc at jlab.org>>
> Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2018 11:53:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [Dsg-ltcc] LTCC S5 test, C4F10 usage update
>
> Hi Mauri,
>
> If there are plans to run the LTCC this Fall using C4F10 gas, you will need to purchase an additional supply of this gas.
>
> I estimate that there will be <30kg of gas remaining in the supply tank at the end of this run. This amount of gas may not be sufficient to refill the S5 LTCC prior to running in the fall.
>
> Assuming an average leak rate of 0.5 kg/day for LTCC S5 and the 75 Kg required to fill the sector, with a 200 day run time, an additional 175 Kg of C4F10 gas should be purchased in order to operate the S5 LTCC. The start of the procurement process should not be excessively delayed due to the potentially long lead time.
>
> If the run plan includes a 2nd LTCC sector, additional gas will be required. Using the same assumptions as for S5, a minimum of 175kg plus a contingency of 75kg, a total of 225kg should be purchased for this 2nd sector. This would bring the total minimum amount of gas required to 400 kg, in order to operate 2 LTCC sectors for 100 days with some small contingency to account for a small increase in the detector leak rate.
>
> If a 2nd LTCC sector is in the run plan, the leakage rate of this sector should be minimized prior to filling with C4F10 gas. Using our S5 experience as a guide we can assume that the S6 position will fill and operate the similarly if the box is leak tight.
>
> There is significant additional complexity for the S2-S3 location. If we take into account that the "nose" area of the LTCC box is where the majority of the leakage is concentrated, we can assume that the S2 and S3 position may have a larger leak rate due to the increased pressure at the "nose" due to the S2-S3 orientation.
>
> There is also some uncertainty as to how efficiently the S2-S3 volume will fill with a shorter vent line due to the increase in height location of the S2-S3 volumes. Also, due to the orientation of the volume and location of the gas lines, there will be no direct measure of the pressure inside the detector volume or fill level associated with it as we have for S5 or S6. Pressure control may not be as straight forward as it is for S5.
>
> The S2-S3 bubbler will need to be relocated to the top of the fwd carriage to become the vent bubbler. The vent bubbler location for S2-S3 will require an elevated shelf to maximize the separation column height for the C4F10 gas during filling.
>
> Cheers,
> George
>
>
> On 3/20/2018 1:58 PM, Maurizio Ungaro wrote:
> Thanks George, these are all good news.
>
> Indeed we need to address your questions at the end.
>
> Mauri
>
>
> On Mar 20, 2018, at 12:56 PM, George Jacobs <jacobsg at jlab.org <mailto:jacobsg at jlab.org>> wrote:
>
> Please find attache power point update of the C4F10 gas usage for the single sector test.
> --
> George Jacobs
> Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
> STE 12
> 12000 Jefferson Ave.
> Newport News, VA 23606
>
> (office) 757-269-7115
>
> (cell) 757-876-0480
>
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>
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> <LTCC Single Sector Test Status-20Mar2018.pptx>_______________________________________________
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>
> --
> George Jacobs
> Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
> STE 12
> 12000 Jefferson Ave.
> Newport News, VA 23606
>
> (office) 757-269-7115
>
> (cell) 757-876-0480
>
> (email) jacobsg at jlab.org <mailto:jacobsg at jlab.org>
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> --
> George Jacobs
> Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
> STE 12
> 12000 Jefferson Ave.
> Newport News, VA 23606
>
> (office) 757-269-7115
>
> (cell) 757-876-0480
>
> (email) jacobsg at jlab.org <mailto:jacobsg at jlab.org>
>
> (website) https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg <https://userweb.jlab.org/%7Ejacobsg>
>
>
>
> --
> George Jacobs
> Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
> STE 12
> 12000 Jefferson Ave.
> Newport News, VA 23606
>
> (office) 757-269-7115
>
> (cell) 757-876-0480
>
> (email) jacobsg at jlab.org <mailto:jacobsg at jlab.org>
>
> (website) https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg <https://userweb.jlab.org/%7Ejacobsg>
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> --
> George Jacobs
> Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
> STE 12
> 12000 Jefferson Ave.
> Newport News, VA 23606
>
> (office) 757-269-7115
>
> (cell) 757-876-0480
>
> (email) jacobsg at jlab.org <mailto:jacobsg at jlab.org>
>
> (website) https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg <https://userweb.jlab.org/%7Ejacobsg>
>
>
> --
> George Jacobs
> Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
> STE 12
> 12000 Jefferson Ave.
> Newport News, VA 23606
>
> (office) 757-269-7115
>
> (cell) 757-876-0480
>
> (email) jacobsg at jlab.org <mailto:jacobsg at jlab.org>
>
> (website) https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg <https://userweb.jlab.org/%7Ejacobsg>
>
>
> --
> George Jacobs
> Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
> STE 12
> 12000 Jefferson Ave.
> Newport News, VA 23606
>
> (office) 757-269-7115
>
> (cell) 757-876-0480
>
> (email) jacobsg at jlab.org <mailto:jacobsg at jlab.org>
>
> (website) https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg <https://userweb.jlab.org/%7Ejacobsg>
>
>
> --
> George Jacobs
> Jefferson Lab (TJNAF)
> STE 12
> 12000 Jefferson Ave.
> Newport News, VA 23606
>
> (office) 757-269-7115
>
> (cell) 757-876-0480
>
> (email) jacobsg at jlab.org <mailto:jacobsg at jlab.org>
>
> (website) https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg <https://userweb.jlab.org/~jacobsg>
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