[Erd108] [EXTERNAL] Re: Draft of CPAD-2023 (11/7-11/10) talk

Wed Nov 8 08:25:28 EST 2023

  Hi Maxence,

  why is it C that dominates? I thought one can vary both R (surface resistivity) and C (insulating gap) by an order of magnitude each, easily. If one follows the math in the famous 2006 paper by Dixit, it is indeed RC which defines the spread.

  Skipping half of the channels was indeed not the best idea. We did a similar mistake once with the DREAM electronics, where strips of widely different capacitance were mixed in the same ASIC. Not good for the common mode correction (which in case of DREAM was done by the ASIC itself), and effectively blows up the S/N ratio. I vaguely recall with the APVs this correction is done offline (?) though, so it must be a matter of skipping every second channel, right?

  Transverse diffusion is not a dominant effect in this configuration.

  Cheers,
    Alexander.

________________________________
From: Maxence Vandenbroucke <maxence.vandenbroucke at cea.fr>
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 5:37 AM
To: Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>
Cc: Kiselev, Alexander <ayk at bnl.gov>; erd108 at jlab.org <erd108 at jlab.org>
Subject: Re: [Erd108] [EXTERNAL] Re: Draft of CPAD-2023 (11/7-11/10) talk

Hi Sourav,

I’ve not followed the conversation in its entirety but just to say that in this case what is important is the layer between the resistive component and the readout electrode. The diffusion of the resistive layer happens there, so the distance between the DLC and the copper, and the permeability of the material, are going to be of importance in the effective cluster size. More precisely it’s the RC, but C dominates.

Best,

Maxence

On 8 Nov 2023, at 07:49, Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>> wrote:

Hi Alexander,

The detector  (GEM + mRwell) itself had 1 mm drift gap and 0.5 mm transfer gap. The GEM + MMG has 1mm drift and 1 mm transfer gap. Both of them showed that mostly single strips were getting fired.  The transverse diffusion in KrCO2(80:20) at 2 kV/cm is 0.03 cm ½  . I think only relying on transverse diffusion of electrons will be probably misleading considering both the mRwell and MMG are resistive layer to aid in charge spread. I don’t have the exact number for the resistivity for these two layers at this moment. Electronics for all the prototypes were same but for the zigzag strips which has 128 strips (64 X + 64 Y) , 64 pins of one panasonic was used for X strips and 64 pins for second Panasonic was used for Y strips. Effectively half of the pins of each Panasonic was left floating causing more noise as compared to the other prototypes. It was not a good choice to decouple X-Y strips in two different connectors making the analysis more complex.

Best regards,
-Sourav

From: Kiselev, Alexander <ayk at bnl.gov<mailto:ayk at bnl.gov>>
Date: Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 11:00 PM
To: Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>>, erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>
Subject: Re: Draft of CPAD-2023 (11/7-11/10) talk

  Hi Sourav,

  Well, the slide gives a hint that analysis is in progress, but in general it rather indicates that the readout just shows a poor performance (no charge sharing). Remind me please, what was the hybrid composition (and gaps in mm)? And what is the transverse diffusion coefficient  in all gaps for this mixture and V/cm values? More importantly, why common mode correction (and analysis procedure in general) face more difficulties than in the other cases? Sorry, I did not follow this development, but I thought the electronics setup was identical for all of these prototypes, except for the readout structure?

  Thank you,
    Alexander.

________________________________
From: Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>>
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2023 8:13 PM
To: Kiselev, Alexander <ayk at bnl.gov<mailto:ayk at bnl.gov>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>
Subject: Re: Draft of CPAD-2023 (11/7-11/10) talk

Hi Alexander,

Thanks for the comments. I implemented the suggestions.
As per your questions on slide 10, the plots are for normal angle of track on 1 mm drift gap prototype. For that detector I haven’t yet gotten to the point of extracting residual as it needs extensive work on common mode correction. Work is still in progress on that front.

Best regards,
-Sourav

From: Kiselev, Alexander <ayk at bnl.gov<mailto:ayk at bnl.gov>>
Date: Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 6:25 PM
To: BOSSU Francesco <francesco.bossu at cea.fr<mailto:francesco.bossu at cea.fr>>, Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>>, erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>
Subject: Re: Draft of CPAD-2023 (11/7-11/10) talk

  Hi Sourav,

  A nice set of slides. Please consider to correct or spell out the following:

  slide 3: "Si MAPS tracker" (to make it clear why timing resolution is poor)

  slide 6: BNL bullet should be "2D zigzag" rather than "2D capacitive sharing"
  slide 6: as a matter of fact none of the pitch numbers on the illustrations matches the actual prototype (was 1.35mm in both projections)
  slide 6: a "gap" artifact should probably be removed

  slide 7: well, this is not happening in 2024

  slide 9: "2D chevron" -> "2D zigzag"

  slide 10: for my understanding, the bottom right plot is a total number of strips per event? at which angle is this, and with what drift gap? are you getting reasonable residuals at 0 degrees, for 2&3-strip clusters?

  Cheers & good luck with the talk!
    Alexander.

________________________________
From: Erd108 <erd108-bounces at jlab.org<mailto:erd108-bounces at jlab.org>> on behalf of BOSSU Francesco <francesco.bossu at cea.fr<mailto:francesco.bossu at cea.fr>>
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2023 6:13 PM
To: Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>>; erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>
Subject: [Erd108] [EXTERNAL] Re: Draft of CPAD-2023 (11/7-11/10) talk

Dear Sourav

sorry for the late comments.

For the micromegas part, just two small suggestions.

You can update the CAD design (slide 4) with a recent one (attached)

On the next slide, you can change the 2d zigzag schema with the asacusa pattern (in attachment).

Also, if you want, you can add a picture of the beam test (attached)

cheers

Francesco

________________________________
From: Erd108 <erd108-bounces at jlab.org<mailto:erd108-bounces at jlab.org>> on behalf of Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>>
Sent: 06 November 2023 19:06:07
To: erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>
Subject: [Erd108] [EXTERNAL] Re: Draft of CPAD-2023 (11/7-11/10) talk

Dear all,

I uploaded the modified version of the slides after implementing comments from Kondo and Marcus. I am just waiting to get updated detector mechanics drawing from Pietro on slide 6.
If someone wants to see the slides from browser then suggestions is to open  the pdf version herehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1xMW4bP1jkKIVmxjr1SOUa1gRoTd9lji8/view?usp=sharing<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__drive.google.com_file_d_1xMW4bP1jkKIVmxjr1SOUa1gRoTd9lji8_view-3Fusp-3Dsharing&d=DwMGaQ&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nBhCQ9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g&m=BHZejW_VHb9Q71o7S-mlLGoen-4fy_9oIRXGOF2D_BWKm0S9LARltW1HokCHfvA-&s=Bhl_pPqaVPCV5weH78bL1b_vvshdd5fPUoAUAsIUAzM&e=>

The ppt vesrion is here https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_presentation_d_1S6Dxlu5LS8ji9l32U6tK5iLJwlsRTjyX_edit-3Fusp-3Ddrive-5Flink-26ouid-3D113597179804759540761-26rtpof-3Dtrue-26sd-3Dtrue&d=DwIGaQ&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nBhCQ9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g&m=98t62kwgv1YQ_QvXVHqk89V243o5Us7pbTEvjfv0HvNOMbEds5RhdxM0V3UAA4Th&s=pXbqmTizOZmV5EoJqmZykvG1CDCSzehiNQYetWgkRYA&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_presentation_d_1S6Dxlu5LS8ji9l32U6tK5iLJwlsRTjyX_edit-3Fusp-3Ddrive-5Flink-26ouid-3D113597179804759540761-26rtpof-3Dtrue-26sd-3Dtrue&d=DwMGaQ&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nBhCQ9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g&m=BHZejW_VHb9Q71o7S-mlLGoen-4fy_9oIRXGOF2D_BWKm0S9LARltW1HokCHfvA-&s=-45W9WQ6VbMzVa6zRHxyNTPShTeJVGpyErjJmEI8SsY&e=>

Thanks,
-Sourav

From: Tarafdar, Sourav <sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:sourav.tarafdar at vanderbilt.edu>>
Date: Monday, November 6, 2023 at 10:10 AM
To: Gnanvo, Kondo (kg6cq) <kg6cq at virginia.edu<mailto:kg6cq at virginia.edu>>
Cc: erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org> <erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>>
Subject: Re: Draft of CPAD-2023 (11/7-11/10) talk

Hi Kondo,
Sure, will do that. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.
Thanks,
-Sourav

On Nov 6, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Gnanvo, Kondo (kg6cq) <kg6cq at virginia.edu<mailto:kg6cq at virginia.edu>> wrote:

Hi Sourav
Please also add this reference on slide 6 underneath the cartoon of capacitive-sharing RO

K. Gnanvo et al., NIM A, 1047 (2023) 167782

Thanks
Kondo

From: Erd108 <erd108-bounces at jlab.org<mailto:erd108-bounces at jlab.org>> On Behalf Of Tarafdar, Sourav
Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2023 1:36 PM
To: erd108 at jlab.org<mailto:erd108 at jlab.org>
Subject: [Erd108] [EXTERNAL] Draft of CPAD-2023 (11/7-11/10) talk

Dear all,

Sorry for the delay but attached is the draft of my CPAD -2023 talk. The talk is scheduled for 11/8/2023.  It is 15 (12+3) minutes talk. Effectively I will prefer to limit the number of slides to 14.
Here is the  abstract https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__indico.slac.stanford.edu_event_8288_contributions_7884_&d=DwIGaQ&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nBhCQ9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g&m=98t62kwgv1YQ_QvXVHqk89V243o5Us7pbTEvjfv0HvNOMbEds5RhdxM0V3UAA4Th&s=l0o53slpt0ksi1qOwZ_LVJeAlbB0uBLOmlBxDZxUEVA&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__indico.slac.stanford.edu_event_8288_contributions_7884_&d=DwMFAg&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nBhCQ9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g&m=FOKWrsPPVBb5Ws8ShBIf8yK8t0f_ByFpZDMVepxGV_fskiiyLJCqQu68QHF5bfJP&s=Ei85LJOTAcwgnqnxIQCznGR0Ged1YHzJIKYFLXhMrFc&e=>  and timetablehttps://indico.slac.stanford.edu/event/8288/sessions/586/#20231108<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__indico.slac.stanford.edu_event_8288_sessions_586_-2320231108&d=DwMFAg&c=CJqEzB1piLOyyvZjb8YUQw&r=6nBhCQ9asnI7Gb72jBWQ4g&m=FOKWrsPPVBb5Ws8ShBIf8yK8t0f_ByFpZDMVepxGV_fskiiyLJCqQu68QHF5bfJP&s=ewo_yspSItQBhkvxat7EcGRSwh_c3ED0-_2K4P6xzq0&e=> .

Any comments and suggestions are most welcome.

Thanks,
-Sourav
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————————
Maxence Vandenbroucke, PhD

Université Paris-Saclay
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